Wish: Edit mode for fast block editing

laxu

laxu

Fractal Fanatic
Scenario: You have your preset set up, and want to do something like:
  1. Adjust drive block.
  2. Oh, now I need to adjust the amp block to compensate.
  3. Now I think my reverb should be more subtle.
  4. Let's tweak the amp block again.
  5. Delay needs some work too.
  6. Let's pick a different mic for the cab or move it a bit.
Pretty typical back-and-forth editing of different blocks. This is a pain point on many modelers that don't use touchscreens (where you just tap the block you want), because there's no quick way to get from block 1 -> 3 -> 1 -> 4 -> 2 etc. On the AM4 this seems to still involve a lot of scroll-Enter-edit-Exit-scroll-Enter-edit-Exit rumba.

Proposed solution: Edit mode. This is like a combination of the Amp and Effects modes.
  • Press footswitch 1-4 = select block 1-4 and open its previously visible editor page (or first page of params when entering first time). This way you can jump from e.g Drive -> Amp -> Drive very quickly and tweak params.
  • Press currently selected block's footswitch again = toggle block on/off (or toggle Amp boost on/off).
  • Hold footswitch 1-4 = choose block channel, same as Effects mode.
Editing any block becomes extremely fast because you can jump between them with one button press, toggle that block, or pick a channel to edit.

If Fractal added this mode, I would probably live on it when working on presets.
 
That could be nice. However to get into expert edit mode you still have to hit page left and page right together on each one. So there's still more button presses that you have to do.
 
BROCKSTAR said:
That could be nice. However to get into expert edit mode you still have to hit page left and page right together on each one. So there's still more button presses that you have to do.
Click to expand...
I think that's fine. You don't need to access expert edit that often anyway. Plus if it retains the state of each block's editor, you can just always get back to expert edit after accessing it once if you leave the block open on that screen.
 
I like the idea of having an “edit mode”, but instead would prefer something where maybe holding down ENTER + EXIT take you to this “edit mode” instead of the preset “setup” screen, and you would have to press EXIT again (or footswitches 1 + 2) to go back to your previous (or default) mode. Once in “edit mode”, though, it would behave exactly as you describe above. Would also be nice to have something flashing on the screen to let you know that you are in “edit” mode”.
 
LosD said:
I like the idea of having an “edit mode”, but instead would prefer something where maybe holding down ENTER + EXIT take you to this “edit mode” instead of the preset “setup” screen, and you would have to press EXIT again (or footswitches 1 + 2) to go back to your previous (or default) mode. Once in “edit mode”, though, it would behave exactly as you describe above. Would also be nice to have something flashing on the screen to let you know that you are in “edit” mode”.
Click to expand...
Hell no to anything flashing. It's just distracting. I think the mode will look distinct enough as is.

I think this sort of thing should be on the footswitches so it can be accessed quickly like the Amp mode. I think footswitches 1+4 are unused as a universal shortcut, or maybe do the Amp mode footswitch combo twice to access it.

That said, I wouldn't mind e.g Page Left + Page Right being assigned to this mode.

PS. I would love MIDI control for direct access to the different modes. That way you could augment the AM4 with MIDI for immediate access to whatever mode you want.
 
Maybe I'm missing the point, but If your going to tweak the effect parameters you need to turn knobs right ? So If unit is on desk or on top of a monitor I would rather not use the foot switches to go from block to block when I could just turn the select knob, hit enter adjust, save, rinse & repeat. Is your idea of an "edit mode" to make it faster to change the effect/amp type, or maybe help while playing live to just adjust ?
 
2Link2 said:
Maybe I'm missing the point, but If your going to tweak the effect parameters you need to turn knobs right ? So If unit is on desk or on top of a monitor I would rather not use the foot switches to go from block to block when I could just turn the select knob, hit enter adjust, save, rinse & repeat. Is your idea of an "edit mode" to make it faster to change the effect/amp type, or maybe help while playing live to just adjust ?
Click to expand...
I absolutely hate the "scroll-Enter-edit-Exit" loop. I think it's just too slow and requires too many steps when you want to work with multiple blocks.

I think one of the worst things on all modelers on the market is that working with multiple blocks back and forth is pretty painful when you are building your preset. Things like drives/boosts + amp/cab tend to have a relation with each other where you might want to tweak the other after you tweak one. Similarly e.g delays and reverbs can have this sort of relationship if you want to use them together.

In live use, you might end up with this sort of editing needing to be done on the fly, like say adjusting reverb and delay mix levels. On regular pedals you just turn a knob on each pedal and call it a day. On multifx units, the faster you can get it done, the better as you don't want to spend time menu-diving.

The idea with "Edit mode" is to make it faster to edit any block and their tonal relationship.

If you read the scenario I listed in the OP, the current workflow is something like this:

Preset: DRV -> AMP -> DLY -> REV.
Let's assume we want to mainly edit first param page things so paging and row switching is omitted here.
  1. Adjust drive block.
    • Let's assume Drive is already selected.
    • Enter
    • Turn knobs
    • Exit
  2. Oh, now I need to adjust the amp block to compensate.
    • Scroll to Amp. 1x Select knob turn from DRV.
    • Enter
    • Turn knobs
    • Exit
  3. Now I think my reverb should be more subtle.
    • Scroll to Reverb. 2x Select knob turn clicks from AMP.
    • Enter
    • Turn knobs
    • Exit
  4. Let's tweak the amp block again.
    • Scroll to Amp. 2x Select knob turn clicks from REV
    • Enter
    • Turn knobs
    • Exit
  5. Delay needs some work too.
    • Scroll to Delay. 1x Select knob turn click from AMP.
    • Enter
    • Turn knobs
    • Exit
  6. Let's pick a different mic for the cab or move it a bit.
    • Scroll to Amp. 1x Select knob turn click from DLY.
    • Enter
    • Find cab page
    • Turn knobs
    • Exit
That's about 4-5 steps for each task if you include how many times you need to use the Select knob to scroll. Plus scrolling compared to button presses is not as reliable to do quickly so you might overshoot your target now and then.

Now let's compare this process with "Edit mode"
  1. Adjust drive block.
    • Let's again assume Drive is already selected. The main params page is already on screen here.
    • Turn knobs.
  2. Oh, now I need to adjust the amp block to compensate.
    • Press footswitch 2 to select Amp.
    • Turn knobs.
  3. Now I think my reverb should be more subtle.
    • Press footswitch 4 to select Reverb.
    • Turn knobs.
  4. Let's tweak the amp block again.
    • Press footswitch 2 to select Amp.
    • Turn knobs.
  5. Delay needs some work too.
    • Press footswitch 3 to select Delay.
    • Turn knobs.
  6. Let's pick a different mic for the cab or move it a bit.
    • Press footswitch 2 to select Amp again.
    • Find cab page.
    • Turn knobs.
As you can see it halves the number of steps you need to take to edit any effect in a preset. This could make you really fly on the unit when every block is always one footswitch press away. The more adjustments you need to make, the more steps you save.

Once you are done, you just save your preset and go back to one of the other modes and keep playing.

If you are still not convinced, guess what else already works like this? AM4-Edit! You just press a block and go edit its knobs. This is basically the same thing just without access to as many parameters at once.
 
Last edited:
If I understand correctly you want to do what you can do with buttons 1-4 in amp mode but for the 1-4 blocks of a given scene.

Similarly, I think having a dedicated block edit mode like amp mode would be helpful too. That lets you quickly dial the channels of a block like you can the amps.

I may have just said everything you said it a new way but I’m just trying to understand the specifics of your ask.

There is a block leveling screen for a given scene. As far as leveling goes, I think that solves the need?
 
laxu said:
I absolutely hate the "scroll-Enter-edit-Exit" loop. I think it's just too slow and requires too many steps when you want to work with multiple blocks.

I think one of the worst things on all modelers on the market is that working with multiple blocks back and forth is pretty painful when you are building your preset. Things like drives/boosts + amp/cab tend to have a relation with each other where you might want to tweak the other after you tweak one. Similarly e.g delays and reverbs can have this sort of relationship if you want to use them together.

In live use, you might end up with this sort of editing needing to be done on the fly, like say adjusting reverb and delay mix levels. On regular pedals you just turn a knob on each pedal and call it a day. On multifx units, the faster you can get it done, the better as you don't want to spend time menu-diving.

The idea with "Edit mode" is to make it faster to edit any block and their tonal relationship.

If you read the scenario I listed in the OP, the current workflow is something like this:

Preset: DRV -> AMP -> DLY -> REV.
Let's assume we want to mainly edit first param page things so paging and row switching is omitted here.
  1. Adjust drive block.
    • Let's assume Drive is already selected.
    • Enter
    • Turn knobs
    • Exit
  2. Oh, now I need to adjust the amp block to compensate.
    • Scroll to Amp. 1x Select knob turn from DRV.
    • Enter
    • Turn knobs
    • Exit
  3. Now I think my reverb should be more subtle.
    • Scroll to Reverb. 2x Select knob turn clicks from AMP.
    • Enter
    • Turn knobs
    • Exit
  4. Let's tweak the amp block again.
    • Scroll to Amp. 2x Select knob turn clicks from REV
    • Enter
    • Turn knobs
    • Exit
  5. Delay needs some work too.
    • Scroll to Delay. 1x Select knob turn click from AMP.
    • Enter
    • Turn knobs
    • Exit
  6. Let's pick a different mic for the cab or move it a bit.
    • Scroll to Amp. 1x Select knob turn click from DLY.
    • Enter
    • Find cab page
    • Turn knobs
    • Exit
That's about 4-5 steps for each task if you include how many times you need to use the Select knob to scroll. Plus scrolling compared to button presses is not as reliable to do quickly so you might overshoot your target now and then.

Now let's compare this process with "Edit mode"
  1. Adjust drive block.
    • Let's again assume Drive is already selected. The main params page is already on screen here.
    • Turn knobs.
  2. Oh, now I need to adjust the amp block to compensate.
    • Press footswitch 2 to select Amp.
    • Turn knobs.
  3. Now I think my reverb should be more subtle.
    • Press footswitch 4 to select Reverb.
    • Turn knobs.
  4. Let's tweak the amp block again.
    • Press footswitch 2 to select Amp.
    • Turn knobs.
  5. Delay needs some work too.
    • Press footswitch 3 to select Delay.
    • Turn knobs.
  6. Let's pick a different mic for the cab or move it a bit.
    • Press footswitch 2 to select Amp again.
    • Find cab page.
    • Turn knobs.
As you can see it halves the number of steps you need to take to edit any effect in a preset. This could make you really fly on the unit when every block is always one footswitch press away. The more adjustments you need to make, the more steps you save.

Once you are done, you just save your preset and go back to one of the other modes and keep playing.

If you are still not convinced, guess what else already works like this? AM4-Edit! You just press a block and go edit its knobs. This is basically the same thing just without access to as many parameters at once.
Click to expand...
Again, I like the proposal for edit mode for sure, but would prefer not to use 1+4 to access it (I mean, if I am turning knobs already in edit mode I would prefer to enter and exit via shortcut, not with my feet). But yeah, that 1-5 breakdown in edit mode you had is what I would like (regardless on how to access it).
 
nomoretubes said:
If I understand correctly you want to do what you can do with buttons 1-4 in amp mode but for the 1-4 blocks of a given scene.
Click to expand...
The closest description is probably "what if you had Effects mode, changed footswitch functions around and instead of toggling a block it opens the block editor on footswitch press".

Scenes don't come into it at all.

The premise is to solve these things:
  • Getting to editing any block with as few steps as possible.
  • Switching between edited blocks is as fast as possible without intermediate steps (Exit-scroll-Enter stuff). This makes "a little tweak in block A, a tweak in block B to compensate block A changes" type things super easy to do because you can access A and B with one button at any point.
The difference with Amp mode is that it only applies to the Amp block, and the footswitches are used for channel selection.

"Edit mode" takes Amp mode's "block parameters always on screen" premise and combines it with selecting any block for this sort of editing. In "Edit mode" you'd never see the Home screen, and that's totally fine because other modes are there for showing those things.

While unlike Amp mode, in "Edit mode" channel selection is not a one press action, it's still as fast as Effects mode.
 
Since working over Christmas break with a top pro on the VP4, I've been thinking about the use of DOUBLE TAP [PAGE LEFT] or [PAGE RIGHT] as a way to step directly through the first pages of the edit menus... like tapping EDIT on the front panel of the Axe-Fx III, FM9, FM3.
 
Admin M@ said:
Since working over Christmas break with a top pro on the VP4, I've been thinking about the use of DOUBLE TAP [PAGE LEFT] or [PAGE RIGHT] as a way to step directly through the first pages of the edit menus... like tapping EDIT on the front panel of the Axe-Fx III, FM9, FM3.
Click to expand...
That's would be a welcome improvement for getting quickly to the next/prev block!

But it does not solve an issue that the EDIT spam on Axe-Fx 3 etc has - going from block X to any block quickly.

Example: Let's say the scenario is that I adjusted my drive and want to now tweak my delay mix for some reason.
I'm on block 1 (DRV), I want to get to block 3 (DLY) on the AM4. Then I want to get back to DRV because I was not done with it.

With Double Tap, I need to press Page Right 4 times (double tap twice, with assumingly some amount of wait between the second double tap) to get to DLY, then repeat that to get back to DRV. "Edit mode's" system allows for just two footswitch presses.
 
laxu said:
With Double Tap, I need to press Page Right 4 times
Click to expand...
Correct — double-tap, double-tap. No argument there.

This doesn’t give you random access to any block the way a touchscreen or dedicated switches would but it does give you fast, linear stepping through blocks, which is ana improvement over Select → Enter → Edit → Exit → Select → Enter. And, unlike Axe-Fx, there are only four blocks, so you'd basically never get disoriented. And, I'd add a color cue to the title bar keyed to the block type.

More importantly, I’d be strongly against repurposing the footswitches as navigation. Their first job in the AM4 is to follow the underlying virtual pedalboard model: turn things on and off instantly. Without thought. When you’re editing, you’re constantly listening to effects with and without other effects. Losing one-tap on/off in favor of “tap once to select, tap again to engage” would be a pretty radical departure from that model.

Edit-mode footswtich jumping would be faster in the instance of quick block-to-block tweaking but it basically comes at the cost of making me double-tap a footswitch to bypass an effect... but only SOMETIMES.

Double-tap Page Left/Right keeps the mental model intact, improves UI speed, and doesn’t change what the footswitches fundamentally do.
 
Admin M@ said:
Correct — double-tap, double-tap. No argument there.

This doesn’t give you random access to any block the way a touchscreen or dedicated switches would but it does give you fast, linear stepping through blocks, which is ana improvement over Select → Enter → Edit → Exit → Select → Enter. And, unlike Axe-Fx, there are only four blocks, so you'd basically never get disoriented. And, I'd add a color cue to the title bar keyed to the block type.

More importantly, I’d be strongly against repurposing the footswitches as navigation. Their first job in the AM4 is to follow the underlying virtual pedalboard model: turn things on and off instantly. Without thought. When you’re editing, you’re constantly listening to effects with and without other effects. Losing one-tap on/off in favor of “tap once to select, tap again to engage” would be a pretty radical departure from that model.

Edit-mode footswtich jumping would be faster in the instance of quick block-to-block tweaking but it basically comes at the cost of making me double-tap a footswitch to bypass an effect... but only SOMETIMES.

Double-tap Page Left/Right keeps the mental model intact, improves UI speed, and doesn’t change what the footswitches fundamentally do.
Click to expand...
While I understand your point, the footswitches are already navigation in some cases. E.g holding footswitch 1 then using footswitches to pick the different modes.

With my proposed functionality, I could not figure a particularly good way for toggling fx in Edit mode other than tapping the currently selected block footswitch. It's a compromise for sure.

Unless Fractal adds support for e.g double tap where you could simply use Effects mode where double tapping a footswitch would switch to editing that block.

I would also be open to Fractal offering "Edit block X" MIDI CC commands so users can just use external gear for this sort of functionality.

I just think this sort of thing would be too good to get around the fact that there's no touchscreen on these units.

PS. Having MIDI CCs as alternative to every onboard UI function would be great. E.g "MIDI CC x = footswitch 1 actions in whatever state the AM4 is in." This is different from "MIDI CC x = specific function like say scene select" as it allows you to replace or duplicate some onboard functionality. I could for example keep an AM4 on my desk for easy access to knobs, and use a MIDI controller on the floor as if I had the AM4 on the floor.
 
2Link2 said:
Yes to Admin M, please do not add anything to foot switching that might interfere with the live pedal board approach ! Or add any misstep that could happen in a live setting.
Click to expand...
What I proposed in the OP would never interfere because it would be another mode you need to specifically activate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom