Why I Hate Cliff and His Damned Creation!!!

[jerotas]

If you're completely happy with the sound of a single physical cab, and if you're willing to live with the compromises associated with mic'ing that cab to FOH or the recording desk, it could make sense to use a guitar cab with your Axe-Fx.

Just because I'm using actual guitar cabs, that does not mean that I have to mic them. I can simultaneously use the cab simulators into the FOH or recording desk, while not using the cab simulators into my actual cabs. I know that you know this. So at least half of your point is moot.

Furthermore, if I do choose to mic my cabs (for recording), I'm not limited to the 8 programmed mics (all of which offer no variance of angle or placement). So I have infinite variations if I go to mic it myself, equalling more flexibility. To people who don't have good micing skills, this may be a moot point. For me (and I'm sure some others here), it is not.

You made some good points, however it seems to me that you too have stated some things as fact that are not, because of your own personal preference. But I could be wrong. I hope I do not sound hostile. I just want the full picture out there for people to decide for themselves.

As long as you get your gear info hanging out at GC, it's probably going to stay that way.

Don't get the wrong idea. I don't like GC, but it is sometimes a convenient place to go strictly to try things out in the store and to A/B a couple products (if they actually carry what I'm looking for). And if I like what I try, I'll buy it elsewhere, since their staff are so decidedly unknowledgeable. It was also my friend's first week there, so maybe he just made a mistake lol. I usually do not get my info from GC, much more often it comes from forums like this one. When I saw the size of the QSC, I just decided it wasn't for me (the price did not matter). As it is, I have absolutely no extra room in my vehicle for more gear when I do gigs.

 

[xrist04]

...I mic each of my 2 cabs as well as using a condensor back 3 feet. A single cab could not get me that sound very easily without phase cancellation issues.

When using three mics on a guitar rig, how do you avoid phase issues?

 

[jerotas]

...I mic each of my 2 cabs as well as using a condensor back 3 feet. A single cab could not get me that sound very easily without phase cancellation issues.

When using three mics on a guitar rig, how do you avoid phase issues?

I've never had any phase issues unintentionally...that might be because I did a lot of reading on micing techniques before I ever tried micing my amp. What I do is: I place my 2 Bogner 1x12 cabs two feet apart parallel to each other - so that they are both shooting their sound in the same direction (that's so the condensor will hear them both well). Then I use a separate dynamic mic on each cab, almost touching the grille (very close-mic'd). 3 feet back from that, and about 1 foot up from the others, I place a condensor mic that will get blended in at a later-to-be-determined volume when I do mixdown.

When people get considerable phasing issues, they usually are pointing 2 mics at the same spot (or close to the same spot). If you want to do that, but not phase, you need to use the 3-1 rule talked about here: http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center/glossary/t--3:1Rule, and move one of the mics back far enough to kill the phasing. I gather that it helps that I'm micing 2 separate speaker cabinets. I would think you could also close mic 2 different speakers housed in a single cabinet and get away with it as well with little phasing if the angles were right. The biggest "trick" to micing guitar is to have close-eared headphones on, and move the mic(s) around while playing the guitar (helps to have someone play the guitar for you) until the headphones sound very good. The headphones would of course be listening only to the mics, and don't crank the amp very much (or it will bleed through the headphones). If you don't use this method, it involves too much trial and error and you'll probably never find the best sound, since moving a mic a 1/2" in any direction can make a huge difference.

It doesn't take any special headphones. I use Yamaha close-eared phones that cost me a whole $35 and it helped tremendously.

 

[paulmapp8306]

.

Running through traditional guitar cabs is certainly an option since I have plenty of them around along with some good power amps, but I want to go there as a last resort, because I think the AFX offers the most through FRFR. And I think I would find myself wanting to switch cabs along with patches to get the most authentic tones possible. As it stands now, I gig with a closed back 2x12 loaded with G1265s and an open back 2x12 loaded with Tone Tubbies with 2 different amp heads. If I used those cabs with the AFX, I would want to route everything dirty to the Celestion cab and everything clean to the Tone Tubby cab. I know it's possible with a Radial switcher, but I want to avoid the complexity if I can help it.

You can do this with the Axe if you wish, though you'd need 2 PAs.

One OP to each amp/cab.

Personally having tried both FRFR (with HK stuff though - expensive and goo PA, though dont really know how they compar to QSC), and Art SLA with my VHT 2x12. I hands down prefere my amp and 2x12.

Having said that I very rarely mic up anyway (so dont really know how a mic'd up cab sounds through a PA). Venues in UK are generally too small to need.

 

[paulmapp8306]

OK - Monday morning head on there - you dont need 2 amps at all.

you PA will presumably be stereo.

So, connect OP 1 of the Axe to Channel A (L) in on the amp -, and L out to Cab A
Conect OP2 of the axe to Channel B (R) in on the amp - and R out to cab B.

Any patches that require Cab A, finish at the output of the patch as normal.
Any patches requiring cab B, finish with an Fx loop. DO NOT COMPLETE THE SHUNTS TO THE OUTPUT.

Job done.

 

[Ikarus]

The only people I know of that are happy with their FRFR setups have the QSC's.

FWIW, I love the sound of the Axe-FX through my cheap Roland KC-150 enough that I almost didn't order the Verve 12ma ... and I was comparing it against a Mesa/Boogie RoadKing II w/a 2x12 cab.

And you'd need to buy two of them, which runs something like $2400.

There is absolutely no reason you'd "need" to buy two of them if you don't want to play stereo. I wouldn't play stereo through a single cab either so to me that's a meaningless statement.

Hmmm, those are not my words. Why am I being quoted with something I didn't write. Must be some error, I can't imagine someone doing this intentionally, right strumbringer?

 

[stvnscott]

OK - Monday morning head on there - you dont need 2 amps at all.

you PA will presumably be stereo.

So, connect OP 1 of the Axe to Channel A (L) in on the amp -, and L out to Cab A
Conect OP2 of the axe to Channel B (R) in on the amp - and R out to cab B.

Any patches that require Cab A, finish at the output of the patch as normal.
Any patches requiring cab B, finish with an Fx loop. DO NOT COMPLETE THE SHUNTS TO THE OUTPUT.

Job done.

Yeah, I know, but I don't have a stereo (or dual mono) power amp at the moment, so I would have to buy one. Well, I have a Peavey 120/120, but I'm not carrying that beast around.

Anywho, I want to give FRFR a try and exhaust all possibilities before giving up on it. If it doesn't work out, the band can always use another monitor.

 

[javajunkie]

The only people I know of that are happy with their FRFR setups have the QSC's.

FWIW, I love the sound of the Axe-FX through my cheap Roland KC-150 enough that I almost didn't order the Verve 12ma ... and I was comparing it against a Mesa/Boogie RoadKing II w/a 2x12 cab.

And you'd need to buy two of them, which runs something like $2400.

There is absolutely no reason you'd "need" to buy two of them if you don't want to play stereo. I wouldn't play stereo through a single cab either so to me that's a meaningless statement.

Hmmm, those are not my words. Why am I being quoted with something I didn't write. Must be some error, I can't imagine someone doing this intentionally, right strumbringer?

Too many imbeded quotes, you have to manually edit and sometimes you take out the wrong person for the quote left.

 

[strumbringer]

Hmmm, those are not my words. Why am I being quoted with something I didn't write. Must be some error, I can't imagine someone doing this intentionally, right strumbringer?

Sorry about that! Java is right, it was my manual editing of the indented quotes that screwed it up. Fixed now.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I've never had any phase issues unintentionally...that might be because I did a lot of reading on micing techniques

Or perhaps it's just because you don't recognize multiple-source cancellation ("phase issues") when you hear it.

I place my 2 Bogner 1x12 cabs two feet apart parallel to each other - so that they are both shooting their sound in the same direction (that's so the condensor will hear them both well). Then I use a separate dynamic mic on each cab, almost touching the grille (very close-mic'd). 3 feet back from that, and about 1 foot up from the others, I place a condensor mic that will get blended in at a later-to-be-determined volume when I do mixdown.

Whether you understand or recognize it sonically, as soon as you add signal to the mix from the condenser mic, you are causing multiple-source cancellation. There is a means to prevent that from occurring, however. If you have truly done "a lot of reading on micing techniques" you will know what that technique is. (Hint: it ain't what you found on the Sweetwater site.)

When people get considerable phasing issues, they usually are pointing 2 mics at the same spot (or close to the same spot).

That has nothing to do with the cause of "phase issues."

If you want to do that, but not phase, you need to use the 3-1 rule talked about here: http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center/glossary/t--3:1Rule,

Interesting rule of thumb there, but it will not eliminate "phase issues."

The biggest "trick" to micing guitar is to have close-eared headphones on, and move the mic(s) around while playing the guitar (helps to have someone play the guitar for you) until the headphones sound very good.

Uhh, no. Making any kind of critical mix and/or EQ decisions using headphones is guaranteed to create substantial problems. What sounds "best" to a given individual with headphones will sound completely different played back over loudspeakers.

 

[OmegaZero]

Good post stvnscott - made me laugh. I've had that feeling a few times too. I love the tones I'm getting, but the infinite tweakability truly is damning. No matter how good it sounds I am always thinking I can get it better. I used to sit down to practice/record and end up playing till dawn. Now I often do the same tweaking my tone - sometimes I don't even end up playing at all!

 

[jerotas]

I've never had any phase issues unintentionally...that might be because I did a lot of reading on micing techniques

Or perhaps it's just because you don't recognize multiple-source cancellation ("phase issues") when you hear it.

It did cause a comb filter, but a pleasing-sounding one. Even if there is multiple-source cancellation there, it sounds good. It doesn't sound all thin like traditional phase cancelling does - so who really cares what's in there when it sounds good? I'm only concerned with phasing when it sounds bad.

If you want to do that, but not phase, you need to use the 3-1 rule talked about here: http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center/glossary/t--3:1Rule,

Interesting rule of thumb there, but it will not eliminate "phase issues."

The page even says it won't eliminate, but MINIMIZE phase issues, and yes it does work very well.

The biggest "trick" to micing guitar is to have close-eared headphones on, and move the mic(s) around while playing the guitar (helps to have someone play the guitar for you) until the headphones sound very good.

Uhh, no. Making any kind of critical mix and/or EQ decisions using headphones is guaranteed to create substantial problems. What sounds "best" to a given individual with headphones will sound completely different played back over loudspeakers.

That's a pretty obvious statement. If you have the luxury of having a control room and at least one extra person to help you, or an isolation booth or similar, you can use the loudspeakers to listen to the mic'd tone and bypass the headphones. Anyway after I got my close-eared headphones, I could suddenly very rapidly find ideal mic positions. It's for getting a general idea of what the mic is hearing, keeping in mind that headphones don't have much upper-range sound reproduction. Since my results speak for themselves (people loving my mic'd tones and always wanting to pick my brain about the micing technique used), it's NOT "guaranteed to cause substantal problems" as you say. Learning to work with just about ANY limitation in your own techniques can still produce great results. I also know a couple people with AMAZING-sounding songs that always do their final mix on headphones. Again, not ideal, but they know what to listen for to get the results they want. It does not doom you to use headphones. In fact, without them, I would have never found a suitable mic'd tone.

I have no idea why you want to doubt my "lot of reading". It's not like I have a degree in Audio Engineering or anything. I don't read Sweetwater for tips, that's just the first quotable page I could find. "Lot" is relative anyway. I can't remember everything I read 10 years ago correctly (my phasing cause paragraph), so sorry about that misinformation everyone.

 

[xrist04]

What do you think about this technique for fixing phase issues with near/far mic placement on guitar cabs?

• Place two mics roughly where you think they should go - one close on the cab grille and the other a few feet away[/*:m:fivsfyj9]
• Solo each of the two channels individually and match the volumes of the two microphones [/*:m:fivsfyj9]
• Switch your playback monitors to mono (very important)[/*:m:fivsfyj9]
• Flip the phase switch on the channel strip for far mic - this puts it out of phase with the near mic [/*:m:fivsfyj9]
• Play an open high-E string on the guitar (about 330 Hz)[/*:m:fivsfyj9]
• Move the far mic back and forth, nearer to and farther from the cab until you hear the sound "thin out." This will be where the mics are closest to 180 deg. out of phase[/*:m:fivsfyj9]
• Lock down the far mic at that spot[/*:m:fivsfyj9]
• Flip the phase switch back to normal on the far mic - you're now in phase[/*:m:fivsfyj9]

It's kind of crude, compared to shifting tracks in a DAW, but it seems like it works.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

What do you think about this technique for fixing phase issues with near/far mic placement on guitar cabs?

<snip>...

[*]Flip the phase switch back to normal on the far mic - you're now in phase[/list]

At one frequency, and one frequency only. At other frequencies, you'll be 180 degrees out of phase.

Phase is a parameter that exists in the frequency domain. Two mics placed at different distances from a source will create the effect of two signals being mixed, with one of them delayed. The phase difference between the two signals varies with frequency and is given by: P = (D/c)*F*360, where c = speed of sound, D = difference in distances to the source, F = frequency. For a spacing difference of 2.26 feet and a frequency of 500 Hz, the phase difference will be 360 degrees. At 250 Hz, the phase difference due to this spacing will be 180 degrees. Etc., etc.

The only way to compensate for the phase shift caused by spaced mics is to delay the signal from the closer one by an amount of time equal to D/c. This technique only works precisely for the direct sound from one source. The delay will synchronize the two arrivals and therefore eliminate multiple-source interference due to the spacing of the mics.

 

[xrist04]

At one frequency, and one frequency only. At other frequencies, you'll be 180 degrees out of phase.

Phase is a parameter that exists in the frequency domain. Two mics placed at different distances from a source will create the effect of two signals being mixed, with one of them delayed. The phase difference between the two signals varies with frequency and is given by: P = (D/c)*F*360, where c = speed of sound, D = difference in distances to the source, F = frequency. For a spacing difference of 2.26 feet and a frequency of 500 Hz, the phase difference will be 360 degrees. At 250 Hz, the phase difference due to this spacing will be 180 degrees. Etc., etc.

The only way to compensate for the phase shift caused by spaced mics is to delay the signal from the closer one by an amount of time equal to D/c. This technique only works precisely for the direct sound from one source. The delay will synchronize the two arrivals and therefore eliminate multiple-source interference due to the spacing of the mics.

Okay, this makes a lot of sense, and thank you very much Jay for sharing this info. I've used this simple technique (above) on a number of recordings, and I guess this explains why we often wound up dumping the room mic at mixdown, even after going through "phase pains" ! :lol:

Just goes to show that the physics don't lie.