Whizzer Cone Advice?

D

DJD100

Power User
I was looking at the BEYMA 12GA50 - 12" FULL-RANGE LOUDSPEAKER, which supposedly goes out to 18K or so (250W, weighs 8lbs, 102db sensitivity, $160)?

This in a 1X12 guitar cab or Tech 21 Power Engine might be interesting?

My theory is that for FRFR guitar you really only need say 80Hz- 100Hz thru 6.5K-7K (yes a few low level overtones might be cut but they get lost in the mix anyways etc), so why wouldn't a quality whizzer cone speaker like that one above work well in a guitar cab?

I'm guessing a ported closed back arrangement would be preferred, but I'm just guessing?

Anyone have any experiences with Whizzer Cones?

Any professional insight Jay?

Thanks all...
 
i am no expert,but in a ported cab you should tune the enclosure around the resonant freq.which according to Beyma's specs. is fs=90hz.but the freq. resp. is listed at 70-18000hz.do a search on the internet for cabinet design programs.there are a couple of decent free ones.you can input the speakers specs. and size of cabinet(ported or closed)and get a fair prediction of the freq. response of the speaker mounted in your cabs.i've used Winisd Alpha,and it ended up pretty close to spot on.
or you could just throw caution to the wind and get them and see how they sound.Beyma is supposedly a good speaker from what i've read.but i have no experience with them.
 
Thanks RDeraz, I'll take a look at these design apps!

I was just hoping that I could drop that speaker in a cab I already have laying around (closed back up-ported Crate OS 1X12, or an open back Weber 2X12 (with one hole closed up) and get enough top end to let the Cab Sims breathe etc?

Hopefully someone has tried some of these Whizzer Cone speakers and will chime in?

Thanks again...



RDeraz said:
i am no expert,but in a ported cab you should tune the enclosure around the resonant freq.which according to Beyma's specs. is fs=90hz.but the freq. resp. is listed at 70-18000hz.do a search on the internet for cabinet design programs.there are a couple of decent free ones.you can input the speakers specs. and size of cabinet(ported or closed)and get a fair prediction of the freq. response of the speaker mounted in your cabs.i've used Winisd Alpha,and it ended up pretty close to spot on.
or you could just throw caution to the wind and get them and see how they sound.Beyma is supposedly a good speaker from what i've read.but i have no experience with them.
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with an open back cab,you can drop in any speaker you want.ported cabs have to be tuned to the speaker.do some research before you make a decision.there's tons of info available. ;)
 
I tried using a Whizzer and it actually worked fairly well, but it didn't have enough power handling capability and farted out easily.
 
Thanks everyone, I've ordered one of the cheaper 12" Whizzer Cones to test (Eminence Beta 12LTA), and tried some freeware speaker cab design SW which seemed to indicate that the speaker will do ok in either a closed or correctly ported cab around the size of an OS 1 X 12, so I'll let everyone know how it works?

It appears via tht SW that from 100Hz up the above cab types don't effect freq response all that much, and that the differences are likely around 2db at 80 Hz better for the ported cab. If that's the case then a little EQ will likely let be fine with the closed cab seeing that it's just for guitar?

Thanks again...
 
and the adventure begins! :D
even if the cabs come out to less than your expectations,you are going to learn alot.if you already haven't.good luck.post your results when your finished. ;)
 
Indeed!

My Whizzer just shipped and should be here in about a week, so my first plan will be to slap it in a closed back OS 1 X 12 and see what happens?

The Eminence Beta 12 LTA is only good out to 8K or so, though for guitar that should be more than enough I'm thinking, so I'm hoping that I can send the Whizzer Cab and FOH the same output as I have a custom tube amp in my loop.

I'll update as soon as it gets here, thanks again everyone!

RDeraz said:
and the adventure begins! :D
even if the cabs come out to less than your expectations,you are going to learn alot.if you already haven't.good luck.post your results when your finished. ;)
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DJD100, I'm very interested in how your experiment goes. I'm thinking about putting a Beyma 12GA50 in my Power Engine 60.
 
Ok, the Eminence Beta 12 LTA arrived and I've listened to it in both open and closed back (unported) cabs at home only (low volume), and I've learned this so far...

a) It has enough top end to do the job (sound good with the Axe's Cab sims).

b) It requires a lot of EQ to sound decent both open and closed.

The Bayma should be better regarding EQ as it's huge jump isn't until 1.5K, while the Eminence's is at 700Hz or so (they both jump over 5db at those respective freqs, which must be the Whizzer Cone I guess?).

Tonight I'll take it to the studio and try it at gig volume (for me that's around 95db - 100db max, mostly vintage medium gain jazz/blues, blues/roots/rock stuff, pushed vintage Fender, Vox, Marshall etc).

I think they can work as a decent stage monitor, though I'm wondering if a real Coaxial and Crossover would be that much better considering their higher costs etc?

I'll report more later...

burningyen said:
DJD100, I'm very interested in how your experiment goes. I'm thinking about putting a Beyma 12GA50 in my Power Engine 60.
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Sure, and I'm very interested in the Beyma as well!

I tried it at gig volume in the studio (fairly dead room), and it sounded good in both open and closed back tests, and it had plenty of top end to get the job done. The Eminence Whizzer has a big 5db plus jump at 700Hz and this was the worst aspect of it, but it was handled ok by the Axe with a PEQ at the end of the chain (the Global Graphic wouldn't cut it). This is definately NOT a "neutral" solution, but with corrective EQ it can sound plenty good for the Axe/guitar combo.

All in all a workable solution IMO that still moves air like a traditional guitar cab (closer to the Fratomic rather than a modern 2-Way Monitor etc), but also allows the Cab Sims to work due to it's extended freq response. I dialed a mean pushed Matchless (4 X 12), and a couple of clean to just starting to breakup Fenders (Bassman 4 X 10, and Deluxe 1 X 12), and all sounded fine through the Eminence Whizzer with it's corrective EQ curve. This was in a OS Crate 1 X 12 , both open and closed (1/2 ply with a MDF back, 23" X 17" X 10").

I'll guess that the Beyma will be easier to correct for with EQ as it's big jump is up at 1.5K, and it carries way out past 15K vs the Eminence which rolls off at 7K (maybe a 1K Shelf is all?), let us know how it goes!

Good luck...

burningyen said:
Thanks for the update! I'm close to pulling the trigger on the Beyma and will post reports if and when I do.
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Interesting that the Eminence sortof worked for you. I couldn't keep it from farting out in either an open back or closed back cabs.
 
I tested it at my gig volume which is 95db - 100db max or so, and it was fine at that volume (didn't try louder?). It was loud enough to keep up with an acoustic drum kit in that room.

It did get harsh in it's top end at volume though EQ tamed that, and my tones were not real bottom heavy being vintage in nature (did not try any modern ultra-distorted de-tuned stuff).

steveb said:
Interesting that the Eminence sort of worked for you. I couldn't keep it from farting out in either an open back or closed back cabs.
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They didn't have it in stock when I ordered, but it finally arrived this week. I'm taking it to my tech in a few minutes! My first chance to audition it will probably be at rehearsal this coming Thursday.
 
Great, thanks!

In looking at the freq response curves the Beyma is a lot closer to the Coaxials than that Eminence Whizzer was, and should likely sound much better. I'm probably not going to use the Eminence and I'm wondering now whether to go with the Beyma Whizzer or a Coaxial, so I'm looking forward to your report, thanks!



burningyen said:
They didn't have it in stock when I ordered, but it finally arrived this week. I'm taking it to my tech in a few minutes! My first chance to audition it will probably be at rehearsal this coming Thursday.
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So I used the Beyma for the first time last night at rehearsal. That was probably a bad idea because my 8-piece band was packed into an unusually small room, and we were all having volume issues. My ears are still smarting. I had the Beyma in my Power Engine 60 to monitor my DigiTech RP355. (Sorry for intruding in AxeFX land!) During the minute of set-up time that I was able to hear my rig by itself, at about 12:00 on the PE60 Volume knob, I must say I didn’t hear a drastic difference in tone from what I used to get with the stock Celestion Seventy 80. If anything, I was surprised that the speaker overall sounded a little quieter than the Seventy 80, which is odd considering that the specs say that it’s supposed to have 102dB sensitivity vs. 98dB for the Seventy 80. Maybe it needs to be broken in a little? There did seem to be some additional clarity in the high end, but again, not a major difference.

But over the course of the 3-hr rehearsal, due to the overwhelming band volume, I kept being asked to turn up so that I could be heard, to the point where I was at about 4:00 on my Volume knob. At that point, I did notice some upper-end harshness on some of my medium OD patches. My fuzz patches sounded pretty much the same as they did with my Seventy 80, maybe because I had done a lot of massaging of the EQ on those when I originally programmed them. One particular patch, however, really stood out as sounding terrific with the new speaker: my acoustic sim patch. It had all the string and fret definition and sparkle that I would expect to hear from a miked up acoustic, even though I was playing my Strat. Also, my patches that simulate being plugged direct into a mixing console without any amp (such as the intro to Pink Floyd’s Shine On You Crazy Diamond) sounded more realistic and less combo amp-like.

What I took away from the experience is that the Beyma definitely helps in a lot of ways, but now I’ll need to sit down and re-dial my RP355 patches and the EQ knobs on my PE60 to adjust for the new speaker. A part of me thinks that life would be simpler if I put the Seventy 80 back in since I spent so much time refining my patches to sound good with that speaker. But the Beyma offers up a more honest representation of my patches, not quite FRFR, but close enough that I’ll be able to send my signal direct to FOH without me being in the dark about what the audience is hearing.

Hope that helps!
 
Thanks, appreciate the data!

I'd be interested in your opinions if you get a chance to test it without the band, and perhaps with a little corrective EQ that could optimize it. You could also test how a closed back would effect it by setting near a wall etc. I'll venture that the listening environment you described was masking many of the Beyma's attributes etc?

Good luck with it!

burningyen said:
So I used the Beyma for the first time last night at rehearsal. That was probably a bad idea because my 8-piece band was packed into an unusually small room, and we were all having volume issues. My ears are still smarting. I had the Beyma in my Power Engine 60 to monitor my DigiTech RP355. (Sorry for intruding in AxeFX land!) During the minute of set-up time that I was able to hear my rig by itself, at about 12:00 on the PE60 Volume knob, I must say I didn’t hear a drastic difference in tone from what I used to get with the stock Celestion Seventy 80. If anything, I was surprised that the speaker overall sounded a little quieter than the Seventy 80, which is odd considering that the specs say that it’s supposed to have 102dB sensitivity vs. 98dB for the Seventy 80. Maybe it needs to be broken in a little? There did seem to be some additional clarity in the high end, but again, not a major difference.

But over the course of the 3-hr rehearsal, due to the overwhelming band volume, I kept being asked to turn up so that I could be heard, to the point where I was at about 4:00 on my Volume knob. At that point, I did notice some upper-end harshness on some of my medium OD patches. My fuzz patches sounded pretty much the same as they did with my Seventy 80, maybe because I had done a lot of massaging of the EQ on those when I originally programmed them. One particular patch, however, really stood out as sounding terrific with the new speaker: my acoustic sim patch. It had all the string and fret definition and sparkle that I would expect to hear from a miked up acoustic, even though I was playing my Strat. Also, my patches that simulate being plugged direct into a mixing console without any amp (such as the intro to Pink Floyd’s Shine On You Crazy Diamond) sounded more realistic and less combo amp-like.

What I took away from the experience is that the Beyma definitely helps in a lot of ways, but now I’ll need to sit down and re-dial my RP355 patches and the EQ knobs on my PE60 to adjust for the new speaker. A part of me thinks that life would be simpler if I put the Seventy 80 back in since I spent so much time refining my patches to sound good with that speaker. But the Beyma offers up a more honest representation of my patches, not quite FRFR, but close enough that I’ll be able to send my signal direct to FOH without me being in the dark about what the audience is hearing.

Hope that helps!
Click to expand...
 
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