What would you do?

AtomicJeff said:
Is your music with her copywrited? probably not?
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From copyright.gov, which is a great website to study…

When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration.”

Why should I register my work if copyright protection is automatic?
Registration is recommended for a number of reasons. Many choose to register their works because they wish to have the facts of their copyright on the public record and have a certificate of registration. Registered works may be eligible for statutory damages and attorney's fees in successful litigation. Finally, if registration occurs within five years of publication, it is considered prima facie evidence in a court of law. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration” and Circular 38b, Highlights of Copyright Amendments Contained in the Uruguay Round Agreements Act (URAA), on non-U.S. works.
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A fixed, tangible, form for music is basically when it's recorded, or scored. Copyright is automatically established at that point, however it's difficult to enforce if it hasn't been registered.
 
unix-guy said:
She's asking for the vocal tracks of the songs only.
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The vocal tracks by themselves are hard to build upon and odds are good they'd be only used for the lyrics and melody then ignored if the works move further.

If the songs have been available freely from a website and you haven't been making money from them there's not much to gain by holding back just the vocals IMO.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
The vocal tracks by themselves are hard to build upon and odds are good they'd be only used for the lyrics and melody then ignored if the works move further.
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Yeah, I'm not sure... She sent me a track the guy had already done with the vocals from one of her own songs already recorded.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
If the songs have been available freely from a website and you haven't been making money from them there's not much to gain by holding back just the vocals IMO.
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It's not really about gaining anything.

I think where I'm mentally stuck is that these are songs we wrote as a band. It's about honoring the integrity of what was written and recorded, and the effort put into it by the band members.
 
unix-guy said:
Yeah, I'm not sure... She sent me a track the guy had already done with the vocals from one of her own songs already recorded.
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The first question my IP lawyer would ask is "Did you register it?"

The second question he'd ask would be "Did you respond to any infractions of the copyright?"

The third question he'd ask would be "Did you make money from the work, and did someone's actions impact that?"

If there were no damages, meaning money lost, it'd be hard to do anything about it legally. Ethically, emotionally or morally are a lot harder to argue and win.
 
Hey, @unix-guy,

Your concern is: "I think where I'm mentally stuck is that these are songs we wrote as a band. It's about honoring the integrity of what was written and recorded, and the effort put into it by the band members."

What you're appealing to is something like the esprit de corps of a military unit with a common vision: A sort of Band of Brothers vibe that derives from working together in common enterprise...where that common enterprise is artistic, and craftsmanship is an expression of the integrity of the creators. I get that.

But your singer is female.

I estimate less than 1-in-10 human persons of the female variety comprehend, or are moved by, those kinds of considerations. It's one of the ways our sexually dimorphic species is differently-wired, across the sex divide.

(There are exceptions of course. On many personality traits, men and women make two bell-curve distributions whose tails overlap in the middle, but the generalization remains statistically valid. BTW, for any young unmarried guy reading this: If you find an attractive female human who really gets this kind of thing, consider having her be the mom of your future kids. Unicorns, after all, are hard to find. But, check the adam's-apple, first.)

So I'm not surprised that this singer is unaware of the taboo (for want of a better word) that she's transgressing. She may have heard you and the other members talking that way when you were working on the music together; but I have my doubts that she's wired in such a way as to actually perceive any associated obligations. Chances are good that she was doing the "smile and nod" routine.

IF I'm correct about this, THEN, she is (in a sense) innocent in her interaction with you. What I mean is: I doubt that she knows she's causing offense, and if she doesn't know it, you can't fault her for choosing to "blow it off." More likely she'd be blankly uncomprehending of your feelings on the matter ...or, possibly, she was unaware until someone (maybe the "producer?") told her, "By the way, your old bandmates might feel you were selling them out. But you have no legal obligation."

Assuming that's where her mind is "at," what do you do?

My own inclination would be...
(a.) ensure you can prove copyright for your own writing credit (registering it is safest; see above ^^^ post from @Greg Ferguson),
(b.) act generously (give her the vocal tracks in some form),
(c.) in a friendly and gentle way, remind her of your writing credit and that it applies to derivative works, and,
(d.) wish her the best of luck.

And then, mentally file her in the "Not a Unicorn" category, for the purposes of future artistic endeavors.
 
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If it was just the singer, I'd be with @rcm78 on this, but there is a producer involved and the vocalist tried to get the tracks from the engineer first. I'd probably run it by my lawyer and copyright experts and the Fractal forum. Not necessarily in that order. ;-)

p.s.: There are a lot of litigious, stressed out, and flakey people in the world, and sometimes we are that person. Where I'm concerned at all about the potential for 100% loss or betrayal, I've had to learn to put legal protections in place for comfort the hard way. I'd likely ask for band credits on whatever gets released and wish the vocalist luck. :)
 
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Did she write the melodies and lyrics? Did recording the tracks cost anything, and if so, did she help pay for it? I guess it really comes down to if you want to be generous or not. I'd rule out the artist mentality, hard to do I know, and think about it rationally. If she wrote the melodies and lyrics and helped financially towards the original project, I'd say definitely yes.

If the answer is no to the questions above, then it is more of a grey area. However, how is it going to hurt you, or the band to give them to her? Do you perform any of these unreleased tracks? Lastly, as others have pointed out, and I say this w/o knowing your band situation, is there any possibility of anything really coming for your versions, or her new ones? If the answer is no, then why not.

If you consider her a friend, then definitely yes. Good luck!!!
 
Dr. Dipwad said:
Hey, @unix-guy,

Your concern is: "I think where I'm mentally stuck is that these are songs we wrote as a band. It's about honoring the integrity of what was written and recorded, and the effort put into it by the band members."

What you're appealing to is something like the esprit de corps of a military unit with a common vision: A sort of Band of Brothers vibe that derives from working together in common enterprise...where that common enterprise is artistic, and craftsmanship is an expression of the integrity of the creators. I get that.

But your singer is female.

I estimate less than 1-in-10 human persons of the female variety comprehend, or are moved by, those kinds of considerations. It's one of the ways our sexually dimorphic species is differently-wired, across the sex divide.

(There are exceptions of course. On many personality traits, men and women make two bell-curve distributions whose tails overlap in the middle, but the generalization remains statistically valid. BTW, for any young unmarried guy reading this: If you find an attractive female human who really gets this kind of thing, consider having her be the mom of your future kids. Unicorns, after all, are hard to find. But, check the adam's-apple, first.)

So I'm not surprised that this singer is unaware of the taboo (for want of a better word) that she's transgressing. She may have heard you and the other members talking that way when you were working on the music together; but I have my doubts that she's wired in such a way as to actually perceive any associated obligations. Chances are good that she was doing the "smile and nod" routine.

If I'm correct about this, she is (in a sense) innocent in her interaction with you. I doubt that she knows she's causing offense, and is callously choosing to blow it off. More likely she'd be blankly uncomprehending of your feelings on the matter ...or was unaware until someone (maybe the "producer?") told her, "By the way, your old bandmates might feel you were selling them out. But you have no legal obligation."

Assuming that's where her mind is "at," what do you do?

My own inclination would be...
(a.) ensure you can prove copyright for your own writing credit (registering it is safest; see above ^^^ post from @Greg Ferguson),
(b.) act generously (give her the vocal tracks in some form),
(c.) in a friendly and gentle way, remind her of your writing credit and that it applies to derivative works, and,
(d.) wish her the best of luck.

And then, mentally file her in the "Not a Unicorn" category, for the purposes of future artistic endeavors.
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With all due respect, I think the bits about female wiring are 100% bs, and pretty offensive to boot.
 
I'd send the requested stuff, but generally have come to the unfortunate realization that it is less likely to lead to problems to help strangers than to help people I have to interact with on a semi-regular basis. Been burned by a few "friends" here and there along the way....
 
Dave Merrill said:
With all due respect, I think the bits about female wiring are 100% bs, and pretty offensive to boot.
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:D
I'm not necessarily offended, but "human persons of the female variety" are usually understood to be known as 'women.'
Just like a musician of the guitar-playing variety is usually understood to be known as a guitarist. :cool:
 
unix-guy said:
Maybe I'm taking it too personally?

To my mind, it's like I created this really cool landscape painting and she asked me to send her the canvas with everything removed but one tree so someone else can repaint the whole thing around the tree...
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Unless there is a significant sum of money at stake, why burn this bridge? I have to assume that this person is a real talent to work with you. Sadly, real talent is hard to find - especially vocalists. If you own the copyright, you’re protected.
 
If your contribution is adequately protected legally, then I'd say you have more to gain than lose.
Financially, the best case scenario is that this endeavor leads somewhere quite profitable for the singer and producer, and thus you'd be getting a piece of that pie. Also, think about how much capital this would have to generate in order for it to be significantly profitable.

It's like playing the lottery, but if you don't play, you don't win, and chances are you aren't going to retire from any profit on this. Thus the likelihood is that you'll want to continue the relationship, if possible (and she cares to), in order to rinse-repeat the creative process and establish something that you both can profit from long-term. If the work isn't generating any income, then I'd roll with it, acknowledging that the industry is full of snakes and leeches who can be much more clever and devious then we might give them credit for. Work is protected. Keep a close eye.

Good luck!
 
rcm78 said:
Give her the tracks and move on. Nothing will come of it.
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I agree with this. Only, I may say - it's 2hrs of studio time to get your tracks together. Price is $150 per hour.
Get some money, give her the tracks (which she could re-record herself anyway). You're protected if anything gets used for a future/new track of hers. But my bet is - nothing happens. And you got $300 towards your next guitar.
 
rcm78 said:
Give her the tracks and move on. Nothing will come of it.
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I did that awhile back and nothing came out of it. But it didn't felt good. If I would be put in the same situation again, I wouldn't do it.

["God damn regrets!"]
Dream Theater, Honor thy father
 
I would have a contract written up, where if anything money wise comes out of this the whole band profits from it and not just her. Then if she is willing to sign said contract give her the stems, if she's not willing to sign id be cautious as to why, Make sure you document everything, and have protections in place just in case.
 
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