What am I missing? USB recording at -12dB

[slimefuzz]

I setup a synth drone for testing, adjusted internal levels so output 1 is at about -1dB,
Out 1 is set to +4dbU and out1 EQ is flat, including level at center 0.
Setup DAW project to record output 1, but the maximum level shown is -12dB.
Tested with Cakewalk and Studio one to make sure it's not a daw issue.
Projects are setup 24 bit, 48kHz to match FM9 output.
Windows 11, with FM9 audio level set to 100%.

Any tips welcome...

 

[GlennO]

This is a common point of confusion and comes up a lot on the forum, and is exacerbated by the misleading use of red on the output block meter. You're comparing two different dB scales. The meter on the Output block is a VU scale, so it will display a number 12 dB higher than the FS meter in your DAW. If you're connected to a computer, ignore the output block meter and use the meter in your DAW.

 

[slimefuzz]

So I need to increase output 1 block to peak at +12db in order to get 0dB max in the DAW, approximately?
With output 1 clipping LED starting at +8dB, still about 3dB from max in DAW

 

[GlennO]

Yes, that's how you would achieve 0 dB in your DAW, but that would be an unusually hot input signal and would run the risk of clipping. Aiming for something around -6 to -12 is more common.

 

[slimefuzz]

Thanks!

 

[Rex]

This is a common point of confusion and comes up a lot on the forum, and is exacerbated by the misleading use of red on the output block meter.

I can see why some people might be confused about this, but I don’t think it’s misleading. VU readings above zero have been red for pretty much as long as VU meters have been around.

 

[GlennO]

That’s not a DAW . The source of all the confusion is people look at a bar FS meter in their DAW where red is 0 dB, then look at the bar meter in the output block where red is -12 dB and think: WTF?

As I mentioned in one of the many threads where people expressed confusion about this: either use a bar FS meter where red means clipping, or use a needle VU meter where red is -12 dB. Mixing those conventions is causing endless confusion.

 

[mr_fender]

Yep DAWs typically use the dBFS scale that maxes out at 0 dBFS, where nothing higher is possible (all sample bits are set to 1). -12 dBFS is a pretty common recording level in order to leave plenty of headroom for dynamic peaks. Many DAWs let you offset the meters so you can set the VU's 0dB point to whatever you prefer. Some find it more intuitive to aim for the 0 dB nominal level and have positive values for peaks like in the analog days.

 

[Rex]

That’s not a DAW .

Neither is the Axe-Fx, or FM9 or FM3.

The source of all the confusion is people look at a bar FS meter in their DAW where red is 0 dB, then look at the bar meter in the output block where red is -12 dB and think: WTF?

The source of the confusion is deeper than that. For people who don't know the differences between the various types of metering, needle-vs.-bar won't help them. The gear shouldn't have to animate a moving needle to make that work.

Think of all the guitarists who are steeped in the analog world. In their world, zero on a meter still leaves them some wiggle room, and red doesn't mean dead. If you change that now, you'll confuse a whole new set of people who heard "tickle the red" somewhere, and think it applies to everything (and it does apply to most of the analog world they came from). You'll still be helping people through their confusion, but you'll be explaining it to people who are less ready to understand the answer.

 

[GlennO]

I get what you're saying, but read the OP again. He's confused about one thing and one thing only: the apparent discrepancy between the meter in his DAW and the meter in the output block. It's not any deeper than that. And it's not just him. There have been many threads with people expressing the same confusion over that discrepancy. And it's not just inconsistency with the DAW. The front panel output meters on the Axe-FX use red to mean clipping.

I don't honestly know if anybody would be confused if the output block meter was changed to FS. That's a common convention, so I'd be surprised if that caused confusion. However, what I do know is that people are confused by the way it is now, so doing nothing doesn't seem like a good plan to solve the problem.

P.S. FS does not mean there is no room on the meter above 0 dB, either in the output block or in a DAW. Mr Fender isn't quite right about that, because the meters are measuring float quantities.

 

[mr_fender]

0 dBFS by definition is the highest point in the scale. Its reference point is the highest capturable value for each sample (all bits set to zero). Floating point audio signals are not measured in dBFS as that is not a fixed scale.

 

[GlennO]

0 dBFS by definition is the highest point in the scale. Its reference point is the highest capturable value for each sample (all bits set to zero). Floating point audio signals are not measured in dBFS as that is not a fixed scale.

Sure, but I was just taking issue with your point that a DAW meter maxes out at 0 dB and nothing higher is possible.

 

[mr_fender]

Ah. I see your point. Since VU meters are also adjustable, you can easily offset them to whatever reference you want. But you are then no longer technically measuring in dBFS. The unit should change to generic dB instead of dBFS but not all DAWs do that. Adds to the confusion.

 

[GlennO]

Yeah, if you frame the problem as “The output block meter is different than my daw meter” (which I think accurately captures all the confusion people have reported), the simple solution would be to make the output block meter look and act like a typical daw meter. However that could be supplemented with annotations like “Aim for this point here” in big bold letters and arrows.

 

[Rex]

I get what you're saying, but read the OP again. He's confused about one thing and one thing only: the apparent discrepancy between the meter in his DAW and the meter in the output block.

Here we agree.

And it's not just him. There have been many threads with people expressing the same confusion over that discrepancy.

Also agreed.

...if you frame the problem as “The output block meter is different than my daw meter” (which I think accurately captures all the confusion people have reported)...

Agreed again. Dang. We're getting into "Let's have a beer!" territory.

...the simple solution would be to make the output block meter look and act like a typical daw meter.

Hold my beer.

I would guess that more Fractal owners plug into a mixer than into a DAW. And that means they're used to traditional VU-style metering. And that means that switching to dBFS would send them right here, wondering why they're only hitting zero and their tone sounds like crap. Your idea of adding an "Aim for here" note would help, but that's a nonstandard added complexity. And it doesn't translate well to that live desk. If I'm in the middle of a show, and I've got seven things on my mind all at once, I want my meters to slap me in the face with an aim-for-here indicator. That's exactly what VU meters do.

The DAW is the outlier, because it uses dBFS. It pretty much has to, because people who sell DAWs have no control over the hardware they're installed in, and dBFS is the only common standard across all that hardware. But that means it's on the DAW owner to know how his software deviates from the older, more common hardware standard.


Pant, pant Can I have my beer back?


I'll grant this, though: I think it would be helpful if Axe-Edit's Output block meters adhered to the hardware, and went yellow above 0 dB, instead of red. That would be an intuitive way to let people know that they have room to go before they hit the wall.

 

[GlennO]

I'll grant this, though: I think it would be helpful if Axe-Edit's Output block meters adhered to the hardware, and went yellow above 0 dB, instead of red. That would be an intuitive way to let people know that they have room to go before they hit the wall.

Been suggesting a color change for years. Seems to be a big ask. That would definitely help. Note in this case however, as in many others, the OP is reacting to the numbers, not the color. I take your point that a scale change might replace one discrepancy with another. I doubt it though, since I suspect users are looking at the numbers more closely in the DAW case, but I don't know for certain. The only thing that is undeniable is that the status quo is causing confusion.