Verdict on the Celestion F12-X200 & 150 speakers in 2024

[Love]

If you've used them, what was/is your experiences with them in terms of quality of the sound at practice and gig levels. Are you still using them, and in what cabinet? I have read that using the right can with them is important.

Do they sound more like an "amp in the room?"

Will they sound as good as my current monitors, 2 x QSC K10's?

I'm playing through an AxeFX III into 2 x QSC K 10's.

Will I have to Re-EQ all of my presets for them or are they pretty neutral, i.e., flat?

 

[sprint]

F12M-150s swapped into ancient Atomic passive cabs driven with Matrix GT1000FX at low basement volumes. Not totally flat but they translate across varying tones with a traditional guitar cab like oomph and feel to my non-gigging hacker ears. Search will find many comments on these for you.

 

[Love]

Thanks for the reply. I saw earlier posts, but most of the comments were not from blokes who had actually played thrpugh them.

You said not totally flat. Not totally flat in what way?

 

[Love]

So I suppose thr question is, what systems are absolutely flat, or as close as humanley possible, and also have the graph on their site to prove it?

 

[skolacki]

I have an F12 cab I built with a Crown amp driving it. Great sounding speaker. Puts my Headrush 112 to shame. I haven’t tried a F150. Lately I’m playing through a Fender FR10 with the V2 preamp from @WKSmith.

 

[TheRedDevil]

Refer to my rig in signature, I'm currently buying/building a second cab for more stereo feeling. I love it!

 

[Love]

I have an F12 cab I built with a Crown amp driving it. Great sounding speaker. Puts my Headrush 112 to shame. I haven’t tried a F150. Lately I’m playing through a Fender FR10 with the V2 preamp from @WKSmith.

Refer to my rig in signature, I'm currently buying/building a second cab for more stereo feeling. I love it!

That's great. I'm glad to hear they're both great sounding speakers. It's always very welcome to have more of those around. You never know when a gig might pop up, or the party might need a band.

I have a question though. Isn't the idea of an FRFR that it's supposed to amplify, but also be totally flat in response so that the XLR out that you send to FOH sounds exactly like what is coming out of your FRFR monitor onstage? Isn't that more or less the "theory" behind it?

 

[skolacki]

That's great. I'm glad to hear they're both great sounding speakers. It's always very welcome to have more of those around. You never know when a gig might pop up, or the party might need a band.

I have a question though. Isn't the idea of an FRFR that it's supposed to amplify, but also be totally flat in response so that the XLR out that you send to FOH sounds exactly like what is coming out of your FRFR monitor onstage? Isn't that more or less the "theory" behind it?

Ideally it should be flat yes. These speakers are not exactly flat but they sound good. I have played music through the F12 and it’s not bad really but it is colored a bit. So now I play music through my Headrush and it works ok for that. If I was running into FOH it’s flat enough for a sound man to correct. I didn’t like FRFR until I built my F12 cab and found a few IR’s that work for me.

 

[sprint]

That's great. I'm glad to hear they're both great sounding speakers. It's always very welcome to have more of those around. You never know when a gig might pop up, or the party might need a band.

I have a question though. Isn't the idea of an FRFR that it's supposed to amplify, but also be totally flat in response so that the XLR out that you send to FOH sounds exactly like what is coming out of your FRFR monitor onstage? Isn't that more or less the "theory" behind it?

The way I look at it is: Studio Monitors (ie I have Yamaha HS8) and / or good PA speakers are very flat and translate varied sounds well, but they don't nesessarily exhibit that "guitar cab" character so much. Guitar Cabs on the other hand (ie my Mesa w V30s) don't translate varied sounds so well, but def have that guitar cab character. FR Cabs w X200 or 150 are a hybrid of the 2 in that they translate varied tones decently enough (but not as well as studio monitors) and they also have a good dose of guitar cab vibe. Having a look at frequency response graphs can help explain (ie see here the differences between: HS8, V30, X200, 150 but remember the effect of the enclosure is not included in the Celestion graphs). As I understand it, the 150 is a little more forgiving in terms of what type of enclisure its in where as Celestion recommends a specific enclosure spec for the X200 which is more flat in the upper range compared to the 150 which has a big roll off at 10k. Doug Doppler's series of videos on these 2 speakers is a great in depth resource for more insight).

 

[JTI]

That's great. I'm glad to hear they're both great sounding speakers. It's always very welcome to have more of those around. You never know when a gig might pop up, or the party might need a band.

I have a question though. Isn't the idea of an FRFR that it's supposed to amplify, but also be totally flat in response so that the XLR out that you send to FOH sounds exactly like what is coming out of your FRFR monitor onstage? Isn't that more or less the "theory" behind it?

Give up now while you can.

 

[TheRedDevil]

"FRFR" means playing the sound of the original microphone recording coming from AXEFX Output when cab+IR is used.. The F12+F12M combination (!) creates the sound “Cab in the Room” out of it. A Celestion 12" guitar speaker in a real cab simply sounds better than 12" monitor speakers. Whether it's the material. No idea. That's what I was searching for and because of this forum I found it really quickly. The headrush is not good. I tested it and send it back directly.

 

[Love]

I found this interesting thread on this Forum titled "flattening the Headrush Curve." It might be of interest to someone:

"The headrush 108 is a popular and cheap way to monitor fractal rigs. But it is far from "flat". Flat is relative to a lot of things. This thread aims to tame the worst deviations and make the critter behave a little better.

I picked up a miniDsp UMIC-1 and REW software on the Mac using the FM3 as the interface . And with the headrush on the floor, contour switch off, and surrounded in a heavy slab of foam to minimize the room and floor..

Analyzing the RTA plots hundreds of times revealed some big dips in response that can be corrected somewhat with global eq.

The first plot in Red shows the 108 without eq. The plot in blue shows the corrected response with parametric global eq.... which is limited from the lowest and highest bands being shelving instead of peaking. But it still made a drastic difference removing the blanket and boominess.

And the second pic are the settings on the global eq .
Hope this helps someone. Your mileage, temperature, and humidity may vary."

 

[Love]

Give up now while you can.

Hey, I'm just here asking questions, trying to get this whole thing figured out. I'm genuinely happy for everyone achieving great toans. I'm glad Fractal is making a lot of people, and even persnickety former tube amp snobs, happy in that regard.

 

[xrist04]

So I suppose thr question is, what systems are absolutely flat, or as close as humanley possible, and also have the graph on their site to prove it?

Atomic CLR is pretty good for the money (USD995 ea).

The loudspeaker designer has posted "The preliminary response specification is 50 Hz - 18 kHz, +/- 2dB freefield." The frequency response curve was taken from a production CLR unit using a calibrated measurement microphone in an anechoic chamber and a TEF analyzer.

Other monitoring systems are available with similar curves (Meyer MJF-212, Martin Audio XE-300) but unit prices start around USD3500.

 

[Dave Merrill]

Atomic CLR is pretty good for the money (USD995 ea).

The loudspeaker designer has posted "The preliminary response specification is 50 Hz - 18 kHz, +/- 2dB freefield." The frequency response curve was taken from a production CLR unit using a calibrated measurement microphone in an anechoic chamber and a TEF analyzer.

Other monitoring systems are available with similar curves (Meyer MJF-212, Martin Audio XE-300) but unit prices start around USD3500.

Interesting that the world finds actually flat desirable. The absence of ripples and wrinkles is clearly good, but some folks find overall flat too bright, especially at volume. There's some debate about that, and alternative curves proposed, some even built into RTAs, or at least there was some debate back in my sound person days, long ago.

 

[Love]

Interesting that the world finds actually flat desirable. The absence of ripples and wrinkles is clearly good, but some folks find overall flat too bright, especially at volume. There's some debate about that, and alternative curves proposed, some even built into RTAs, or at least there was some debate back in my sound person days, long ago.

No, I'm not talking about the actual sound that comes out of the speakers to be flat, no. that would sound horrible. I'm talking about the FRFR speakers being "flat," meaning, they faithfully reproduce whatever tones you feed into them without adding anything nor taking anything away from it. Once you have that, then you can EQ your tone to be whatever you like, bassy, midy, balanced, whatever you like. The speakers are just not adding anything to that or taking anything away, they're flat.

 

[JTI]

No, I'm not talking about the actual sound that comes out of the speakers to be flat, no. that would sound horrible. I'm talking about the FRFR speakers being "flat," meaning, they faithfully reproduce whatever tones you feed into them without adding anything nor taking anything away from it. Once you have that, then you can EQ your tone to be whatever you like, bassy, midy, balanced, whatever you like. The speakers are just not adding anything to that or taking anything away, they're flat.

And therein lies the rub. These conditions of perfection will never exist. Hence my comment above. Not trying to squash discussion at all (and I applaud your intentions). I just know how this "quest" ends up. AKA 12 years down the road with a trail of dashed hopes and dreams and 37k digital gear forum posts

 

[zedeloc]

I'm wary of any customized options if I need my gear to work reliably. If it breaks, you need to repair or replace. Custom gear can cause this process to be expensive, long, out of your hands, or impossible.

I'm with JTI on tempering your expectations and being cautious with chasing the dragon. A healthy compromise is relying on gear that is readily available, rugged, and that does a good enough job at the volume you require. Like you, I use QSCs. 2 K12.2 for live rehearsal and 1 or 2 for my stage volume. They're not perfect. It sounds like a studio recorded tone. It's missing a certain thump. But they are close to what your average PA will sound like. Sound person will adjust to their needs.

Need amp in the room? Use amp in room. Get a 2x12/4x12, power amp, and an IR that is similar to that cab. Use the cab for the "Amp In The Room™" and the IR for control of your live sound.

Something in between? Might want to try the new Fender option that everyone seems to like. Laney also has an interesting option.

Ideal at low to mid-volume? Studio monitors are king. Or said "Amp In The Room™" solution.

If you're going to create your F12 loudspeaker on your own to celestion spec, I figure all my points are null and void, as you are your own repair person.

 

[JTI]

The F12 sounds great powered by my Stealth. Also when I had my Badlander. I like it with my Ritter Kamplifier but not so much with my Behringer Crown ripoff. Or is it a QSC ripoff? Can't remember. Presets translate quite well to FOH and I am pleased with what I hear out of my stage amp and F12x-200s as well as what I hear from whatever stage monitor I get at a given gig. These same presets also translate great through my Fender FR12 so that was my good enough benchmark.

 

[TheRedDevil]

Ich verstehe nicht, warum wir früher Celestion bei mehr oder weniger jedem Gitarrenlautsprecher in jedem Gehäuse vertraut haben, aber jetzt, in Zeiten von AXEFX, vertrauen wir Celestion nicht mehr bei einer FRFR-Lösung für Gitarristen? Gehen Sie den direkten Weg, kaufen Sie ein gebrauchtes leeres Gehäuse und setzen Sie F12+F12M ein. Das ist alles!
Fender? Nein, ein 12"-Lautsprecher reicht nicht für einen tollen Gitarrensound und ist eine fixe Lösung. Kaufen Sie einen billigen externen SS-Verstärker und diese beiden Lautsprecher und Sie können alles selbst reparieren/austauschen.
Momentan verwende ich nur einen EQ auf Out1 für beide unterschiedlichen Lautsprecher in einer Box. Das funktioniert auch super. Ich kompensiere damit einfach die geringe Lautstärke im Schlafzimmer. Außerdem habe ich den Klang mit GB-Lautsprechern in derselben Box verglichen, kein Unterschied mit einem guten IR oder einem besseren DynaCab.
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/celestion-f12-x200-vs-f12m-150.190304/