Trying to understand the master volume

G

golfnut

Inspired
I have read this article: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/setting-the-master-volume.119903/

For all my clean tones, Blackface, Vox, etc (which are important to me) I would run the master volume at 10 and the gain between 2 or 3. Then level as needed. I never really though it sounded that great. Then I read the post in that link above and tried lowering the master. I've got it 5 or 6 , depending on the preset and the gains around 4. It does sound cleaner with more clarity. That post above says that works like an actual amp. But if I ran the masters on my tube amps at around 5 with the gains on 4 I'd be getting a fair amount of preamp breakup. On my tube amps they always sound better for cleans if I can run the master wide open.
I've found the same for my mid gain crunch presets. That I get crunch with more clarity (not overly distorted) if I run masters and gain this way.
Although I've ready the post above a few times, not sure I really understand it.
I don't get, when running the master volume at 10 that I get power tube distortion and that supposedly works like real amps. If I run my tube amps at 10 on the master with the gain lower I get pristine clean.
 
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Rex said:
On Amp models that don't have a master volume in real life, go ahead and keep Master Volume at 10. If you need pristine clean, lower Gain until you get there.

A real blackface Fender will start to break up with the gain around 3.
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I had a 1965 Deluxe Reverb and this is 100% true. It was (pleasantly) dirty by 3 and too loud and shrill after 6. These are NOT clean amps. Awesome though.
 
golfnut said:
If I run my tube amps at 10 on the master with the gain lower I get pristine clean.
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I would bet good money that you don't, you just feel like you do. Stick a mic on it and record and you'll hear plenty of hair!

I don't get too attached to "authenticity in use" in modelers. If I feel like the power amp is overdriving too much or is getting wooly, I turn down the master, even if the original amp didn't have one, or I wouldn't really use it on one (like Matchless, which were my main amps for a couple of decades).

To be honest, if I want pristine clean I usually use either no amp at all or something like the JC-120 model. But I almost never do. My main clean amp in the FM9 is the Hiwatt Brilliant channel, and I dial it in with a bit of hair.
 
Depends entirely on the gain staging of the amp. As a test, take your favorite amp and compare its breakup level with power amp modeling on and then off. The difference might surprise you on some models.

The biggest difference most people face with modeling is volume. Something like a 100 Watt Plexi or Fender Twin Reverb on 3 is LOUD! Unless you're monitoring at a comparable level, your overall experience will likely be quite different from the real deal.
 
Yeah, all of those Deluxe Reverbs and Vox ACs with Master Volumes sound great with the Master cranked in real life.


Ew No GIF by Awkward Daytime TV




🤣
 
You’re on the right track, it works when your ears say it’s right, not your eyes. Using your known amp settings is a good place to start, then do exactly as you did: change til it’s what you want.

Glad you found what you wanted. Nothing’s wrong at all with how it worked for you. The Master is another thing you can adjust, nothing more to it than that.
 
dented42ford said:
I would bet good money that you don't, you just feel like you do. Stick a mic on it and record and you'll hear plenty of hair!

I don't get too attached to "authenticity in use" in modelers. If I feel like the power amp is overdriving too much or is getting wooly, I turn down the master, even if the original amp didn't have one, or I wouldn't really use it on one (like Matchless, which were my main amps for a couple of decades).

To be honest, if I want pristine clean I usually use either no amp at all or something like the JC-120 model. But I almost never do. My main clean amp in the FM9 is the Hiwatt Brilliant channel, and I dial it in with a bit of hair.
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Yes you're right. I shouldn't have said "Pristine clean". My idea of clean isn't "solid state" clean. Infact many of my cleans have some form of slight break up if you dig in hard. The cleanest of my cleans is probably the "Band Commander".
Its weird that I found the best way to clean them up is lowering the MV. For me the Band Commander was cleaner and clearer with MV on 6 and gain on 4 then when I had the MV on 10 and the gain on 2. That just seems weird. Since the band master has no MV I would have thought just keeping it dimed would be the best way.
I also use the Hiwatt Brilliant amp and dial it the same as you. But probably my favorite clean amp with a little bit of hair is the Class-A 30W brilliant. I went through a long period of using Vox and Vox based amps (Dr Z Stangray) until I could no longer handle the loud volume they needed to be. Never liked what attenuators did to them. Now I feel like I can have all that at better volumes.
 
golfnut said:
Its weird that I found the best way to clean them up is lowering the MV. For me the Band Commander was cleaner and clearer with MV on 6 and gain on 4 then when I had the MV on 10 and the gain on 2. That just seems weird. Since the band master has no MV I would have thought just keeping it dimed would be the best way.
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That's actually pretty much expected behavior. As it says all over the amp descriptions, a Fender preamp is basically purely clean - you can get them to break up by slamming them, but they don't generate much saturation at all even dimed. Most of the distortion in a Fender comes from the PI and power amp. By lowering the output from the preamp into the power section, you are VASTLY increasing headroom.

Hiwatts are weird beasts. They have a Master volume and are designed around it, but are also intended to be LOUD. I've had various real ones over time - and I'd like another DR103 someday - and they act the same. So does the clean channel on the Fryette Sig:X, which is basically a Hiwatt variation, but NMV and with more inherent gain.

I used a DC30 and/or Black Cat as my gigging amps for over a decade - I kept the Black Cat (I liked it more, sold the DC30 when I moved to Europe) - and while it is a great sound, I like the punchier Class A/B Hiwatt for direct tones. They just seem to translate better - just like the real amps, the models of the Voxes and Matchlesses can get a bit grungy or honky sounding.
 
One potential difference between preamp and power amp distortion is preamp distortion may often be asymmetric and power amp distortion is usually symmetric. Symmetric distortion only has odd-order harmonics while asymmetric distortion has both odd and even order harmonics. While even order harmonics might sound “warmer”, in preamp distortion they are combined with odd order harmonics to create a more complex tone that can be harsh and sound over-compressed, with possibly more intermodulation distortion. Plus power amp distortion in a real amp situation is going to drive the speakers harder and be loud, often uncontrollably loud. When using modelers, with their output level control, we don’t have these limitations. But removing the limitations might not produce what you are expecting. Loud matters.
 
Jim Amsden said:
One potential difference between preamp and power amp distortion is preamp distortion may often be asymmetric and power amp distortion is usually symmetric. Symmetric distortion only has odd-order harmonics while asymmetric distortion has both odd and even order harmonics. While even order harmonics might sound “warmer”, in preamp distortion they are combined with odd order harmonics to create a more complex tone that can be harsh and sound over-compressed, with possibly more intermodulation distortion. Plus power amp distortion in a real amp situation is going to drive the speakers harder and be loud, often uncontrollably loud. When using modelers, with their output level control, we don’t have these limitations. But removing the limitations might not produce what you are expecting. Loud matters.
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Not to mention the smoothing effects of both speaker motor nonlinearity and psychoacoustics. The former is captured a bit in the Fractal stuff, but there is no substitute for the latter except actual volume.

There's also the psychological effects of volume - you tend to play more dynamically when really loud, in general, just because those dynamics are more obvious. So that "clean tone" might actually be clean at 120db when played with a light touch, but at 85db you are digging in more because it "feels like you should" so it is hairier. This is often unconscious, at least in my experience.
 
One more thing: on Fender models and some others, you need to account for using normal (or low) vs high input.

Adjust Input Trim to .500 to be equivalent to the normal/low input of the real amp.
 
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