ToneX "immediate" feeling vs FM3 FW 9.0

F

Fausto Massa

Member
Hi all,
Today I've been doing some deep dive comparisons between an upgraded FM3 v9 and a ToneX pedal.
I was wondering why many users declare that ToneX is very immediate under the fingers whereas Fractal seems more processed.
Well, today after thorough testing I think I've found the culprit.
The majority of ToneX captures, I assume, are done at "humanly bearable" volume. It doesn't make any sense to capture a Slo100 at 5-6 MV it will destroy any SM57 or 121 in front of the cab, which are not capable od handling such SPL.
The immediate consequence of that capture approach is that the power amp acts in a linear range, and doesn't apply any perceivable compression.
In that range any guitar will enjoy a full dynamic range with the pick attack conveyed to the speakers; this is much more evident with high power/volume amps like Friedmans Bogners and Soldanos.
If the assumption is true, if on the FM3 we disable the power amp modeling or either we keep MV at 1-2, we obtain pretty much the same result under the fingers. That's what I did comparing the models with the captures.
This is moreover very true on clean amp models, or edge of breakups models, where the poweramp stage is less modifying the sound.
Avoiding high gain amps, I tried pretty much any Dumble on Tonex net and realized that the MV on Tonex is just a digital raise in level, and I wanted to replicate the "feeling" disabling on FM3 the power amp in any ODS amp blocks... that created pretty much the same Tonex experience.
Furthermore, disabling input noise gates and lowering the guitar volume to 2-3 created the (in)famous dynamics all the profiler aficionados are claiming for.

My setup is FM3 into a couple of Yamahas HS8, I'll try to repeat the approach with other headphone/frfr/ssd+cab combos in the near future.
Any thoughts, reflections or experiments on similar topics on your side?
Thanks a ton
Fausto
 
Fausto Massa said:
Hi all,
Today I've been doing some deep dive comparisons between an upgraded FM3 v9 and a ToneX pedal.
I was wondering why many users declare that ToneX is very immediate under the fingers whereas Fractal seems more processed.
Well, today after thorough testing I think I've found the culprit.
The majority of ToneX captures, I assume, are done at "humanly bearable" volume. It doesn't make any sense to capture a Slo100 at 5-6 MV it will destroy any SM57 or 121 in front of the cab, which are not capable od handling such SPL.
The immediate consequence of that capture approach is that the power amp acts in a linear range, and doesn't apply any perceivable compression.
In that range any guitar will enjoy a full dynamic range with the pick attack conveyed to the speakers; this is much more evident with high power/volume amps like Friedmans Bogners and Soldanos.
If the assumption is true, if on the FM3 we disable the power amp modeling or either we keep MV at 1-2, we obtain pretty much the same result under the fingers. That's what I did comparing the models with the captures.
This is moreover very true on clean amp models, or edge of breakups models, where the poweramp stage is less modifying the sound.
Avoiding high gain amps, I tried pretty much any Dumble on Tonex net and realized that the MV on Tonex is just a digital raise in level, and I wanted to replicate the "feeling" disabling on FM3 the power amp in any ODS amp blocks... that created pretty much the same Tonex experience.
Furthermore, disabling input noise gates and lowering the guitar volume to 2-3 created the (in)famous dynamics all the profiler aficionados are claiming for.

My setup is FM3 into a couple of Yamahas HS8, I'll try to repeat the approach with other headphone/frfr/ssd+cab combos in the near future.
Any thoughts, reflections or experiments on similar topics on your side?
Thanks a ton
Fausto
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I think you have a flawed assumption that all captures are equal. If someone made a capture with the master volume high that was performing high compression then that will be part of the inherent capture. You can't expect adjustments within tonex to understand what that amp would be like at a lower mv. That is why the better vendors provide multiple captures at many settings.
 
Shask said:
I have been really liking the ToneX lately. It is obviously a very difference experience than Fractal, but I think it has good feel and tone. I do find it to have a very snappy feel to it.
Click to expand...
That's the core of my experiment, it should be interesting to understand if the captures you find snappy have been done at low MV
 
rzjd said:
I think you have a flawed assumption that all captures are equal. If someone made a capture with the master volume high that was performing high compression then that will be part of the inherent capture. You can't expect adjustments within tonex to understand what that amp would be like at a lower mv. That is why the better vendors provide multiple captures at many settings.
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That's correct I'm not assuming all are equal, I'm just wondering if users like the snappiness it could be associated with captures done at low MV
 
unix-guy said:
Then how do they mic them live or in the studio?

I'm pretty sure the SM57 would not have a problem...
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My sentence was surely extreme, I'm just saying that there aren't specifications on the MV level of the capture at least on the majority of tonenet profiles I checked, and I assume who is capturing is using the amp on a reasonably low MV to make mics and preamps avoid clipping or unwanted alterations
 
Fausto Massa said:
"feeling" disabling on FM3 the power amp in any ODS amp blocks... that created pretty much the same Tonex experience.
Furthermore, disabling input noise gates and lowering the guitar volume to 2-3 created the (in)famous dynamics all the profiler aficionados are claiming for.

My setup is FM3 into a couple of Yamahas HS8, I'll try to repeat the approach with other headphone/frfr/ssd+cab combos in the near future.
Any thoughts, reflections or experiments on similar topics on your side?
Thanks a ton
Fausto
Click to expand...
Hi Fausto,

You assume a very subjective opinion of others. And then you try to find solutions to the problem, which is not the case for the majority of other users.

Many customers don't think the FM3 sounds indirect and processed at all. The opposite is true. I get calls every day from people who are thrilled after getting the FM3. Mostly they come from Quad Cortex, Helix, Kemper and similar products.

But I can't confirm that statement either. Since my statements and judgments have to have substance, I have all the competitors within reach here in my studio. However, I must say that the Tone X pedal is very good for my taste.
I'm very disappointed with the Quad Coretx, even though I think it's kind of cool. I found myself wanting to like it. It's nice, and then there's the built-in WLAN and BLUETOOTH. But we are guitarists and our priority is sound.

I'm also lucky enough to have really good monitors in my studio. And that's one of the things that is often overlooked.
Good monitors are absolutely essential. I have two PSI AUDIO A21 monitors in my studio. Incredible monitors with no latency because they are all analog.. And a good monitor is so important to create presets that also sound good through other sound sources. Unfortunately, a pair costs as much as two AXE FX IIIs. Terms like “snappiness” are used because they are supposed to describe a certain feeling. But believe me, when I set up my dream sound on my reference monitors, they unfortunately sound very indirect live on inexpensive wedges. And don't get me started with IN EAR.

To be able to compare, I have connected two FIREFACE UCX II audio interfaces to my MAC. All devices with an optical output are connected via AES (SPDIF). Unfortunately, QC and TONE X do not have this feature and are connected via analog inputs.

I want to mention it again. The Tone X is amazingly good. Better than the QC in my opinion. Which one would I play live? Of course the QC if I had to choose between the two. It has all the important effects and enough controls to cover everything live.
When using the TONE X with effects. (either one or more digital pedals) the latency creeps back in, making the sound more indirect.

But luckily I always play the AXE FX III live 🙂


studio.jpg
 
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Reading the OP a couple of times, I'm not sure I understand the revelation - yes, if MV is turned down, power section effect is reduced resulting in a changed tone - more or less, depending on the amp design. This would be true of any physical amp or descent quality digital model whether component or capture based... no?.

edit - and yes, one must choose and set up the mic + micpre properly when mic'ing up a physical amp running at high power amp levels - if most are setting up Tonex captures at low power section levels because they don't have the expertise to capture high power section levels, then the resulting "immediate" tone with reduced power amp compression would seem to be as much a result of the capture setup, rather than solely a result of the Tonex hardware/fw itself compared to other products as suggested by the thread title.
 
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I have a Tonex rig with two Eventide H90s providing effects and a Axe III Turbo

I’ve spent ages comparing the two, my conclusion:

All the IK captures suck, but there are some really good paid for ones that are stunning, ToneJunkie, Almagam etc.

Comparing these sounds against the ones I have dialled in over years in my Fractal, for amps I have a good knowledge of and have likely played in real life - they’re basically equal, I likely slightly prefer the Fractal but could live with the Tonex happily

For amps I have little/no experience of I prefer Tonex, because someone else has done the heavy lifting.

With the Tonex, as in life - you need to make sure your input level is about the same as the person who did the capture but that’s pretty easy.

So my take is at this stage, they’re both extremely credible - I’m not sure which side I’ll end up on. There’s no better or worse there is just the one that works best for you.

It’s highlighted to me that I’m not great at dialling in some amps and particularly bad at IR selection in some cases, and that is a key part of the fractal ecosystem

These are all amazing tools - we’re very lucky
 
peteri said:
I have a Tonex rig with two Eventide H90s providing effects and a Axe III Turbo
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And you don't find the latency too high?
I tested an H90 a long time ago and found the latency to be a bit high.
I measured it myself and then did some research and found this:

Ultimately, you would have a total latency of almost 12 ms?


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Chromatizm said:
This is so far the biggest contributor to get as close as "immediate" as possible for me. It really makes a huge difference in tone and feeling.
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Agree. I just started messing woth the input threshold and ratio the last couple weeks. The default of -60 and ratio of 3 seem pretty high to me. I always thought that the default was a lot lower in other firmwares.... maybe -80 and ratio of 2. I could be wrong here with the old/new defaults.
Anyway, I've backed of of those defaults and notice a big improvement and also with rolling the guitar volume back. Cleans up A LOT better.
Real amps have a hiss. Personally, I'm ok with some amp hiss when playing live.
 
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