Tone suck and cables - a cautionary tale

O

Origin8tor

New Member
I'd like to share my recent experience with the fx8 MkII as it may help people with similar issues as me.

I purchased the FX8 along with 2 x 5m humbuster cables on release, I'm running the 4cm into a Marshall 6100 head and cab, this head has a effects loops which can run in serial at +4db, trim pots are used to dial in an acceptable balance of loops effects.

Until very recently I have been struggling with tone suck in the recommended configuration. The problem was a subtle but still apparent muffled blanket over my sound I was on the verge of reselling the unit as I thought I had tried everything. I tried input/output padding loop levels everything I could think of.

I decided to try once more using a more methodical approach. I troubleshooted in the following way:
  • plug guitar into fx8 in
  • pre out into the front of the head
I tried this configuration first without plugging in the loop cables. I engaged true bypass, same problem? What did this mean? I'm essentially running a single cable straight through to the amp in? either the true bypass isnt working or its a cable issue, hint: its not a true bypass issue.

So the recommended config is guitar > pre in (standard cable), preout > head pre (humbuster), head send > post in (standard cable) and post out > head return (humbuster)

I use Lava Ultramafic cables, I swapped out the preout > head humbuster with a second Lava and hey presto my sound was back! I then used the humbusters in the amp loop, this didnt affect the tone or noise levels at all, problem solved.

So i guess the takeaway here is, dont rely on the manual being correct for you in all cases, and investigate all your options after all each of us has a different setup.

I feel a bit stupid really, with hindsight was I really expecting a £30 humbuster cable to sound like a £100 Lava cable?

I'm now being amazed on a daily basis by the sounds and versatility of this fantastic unit, ebay avoided :)
 
I'm glad that you finally got the results you wanted.......but it could be your amp here actually & maybe the new cables have more high end that your amp needs?

I run the FX8 in 4cm with 3 Fractal Hum-buster cables & have NO tone suck at all....& this is with 2 totally different amps (Friedman Runt 50 & Carvin Legacy 3) too.

You are the 1st guy I've heard of that's had a tone suck issue with the totally transparent FX8.

Did you or could you shoot a quick video with each cable set-up for us to hear? Either way, congrats on getting it fixed because the FX8 ROCKS!

Peace! X
 
Origin8tor said:
I'd like to share my recent experience with the fx8 MkII as it may help people with similar issues as me.

I purchased the FX8 along with 2 x 5m humbuster cables on release, I'm running the 4cm into a Marshall 6100 head and cab, this head has a effects loops which can run in serial at +4db, trim pots are used to dial in an acceptable balance of loops effects.

Until very recently I have been struggling with tone suck in the recommended configuration. The problem was a subtle but still apparent muffled blanket over my sound I was on the verge of reselling the unit as I thought I had tried everything. I tried input/output padding loop levels everything I could think of.

I decided to try once more using a more methodical approach. I troubleshooted in the following way:
  • plug guitar into fx8 in
  • pre out into the front of the head
I tried this configuration first without plugging in the loop cables. I engaged true bypass, same problem? What did this mean? I'm essentially running a single cable straight through to the amp in? either the true bypass isnt working or its a cable issue, hint: its not a true bypass issue.

So the recommended config is guitar > pre in (standard cable), preout > head pre (humbuster), head send > post in (standard cable) and post out > head return (humbuster)

I use Lava Ultramafic cables, I swapped out the preout > head humbuster with a second Lava and hey presto my sound was back! I then used the humbusters in the amp loop, this didnt affect the tone or noise levels at all, problem solved.

So i guess the takeaway here is, dont rely on the manual being correct for you in all cases, and investigate all your options after all each of us has a different setup.

I feel a bit stupid really, with hindsight was I really expecting a £30 humbuster cable to sound like a £100 Lava cable?

I'm now being amazed on a daily basis by the sounds and versatility of this fantastic unit, ebay avoided :)
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I looked-up the Lava cables that you used & they don't seem to be the same as Hum-buster cables. Meaning that a Hum-Buster cable has a standard connector on one end & a TRS connector on the opposite end (this breaks most ground loops or stops extra hum).

By changing to the Lava (Std) cable, you may have just chased out a ground loop here. In some cases (if the amp needs a ground lift & has no ground lift switch) a standard cable is needed.

I have NO buzz in 4cm when using the FX8 mkii with the Friedman Runt 50 amp.......BUT......Have a crazy buzz when using the Legacy 3 head. The issue was NOT the FX8, but a ground loop at the Legacy amp. I chased out this loop & now run it with no issues. EACH amp is different with the FX8 & the 4CM can create a lot of weird issues as I've found out..........just like over-head lights & bad power too.......

Just a few things to think about.....& nothing more!

X
 
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X-Mann said:
I looked-up the Lava cables that you used & they don't seem to be the same as Hum-buster cables. Meaning that a Hum-Buster cable has a standard connector on one end & a TRS connector on the opposite end (this breaks most ground loops or stops extra hum).

By changing to the Lava (Std) cable, you may have just chased out a ground loop here. In some cases (if the amp needs a ground lift & has no ground lift switch) a standard cable is needed.

I have NO buzz in 4cm when using the FX8 mkii with the Friedman Runt 50 amp.......BUT......Have a crazy buzz when using the Legacy 3 head. The issue was NOT the FX8, but a ground loop at the Legacy amp. I chased out this loop & now run it with no issues. EACH amp is different with the FX8 & the 4CM can create a lot of weird issues as I've found out..........just like over-head lights & bad power too.......

Just a few things to think about.....& nothing more!

X
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Hmmm...I've been plagued with buzz and hum issues with my runt 20 combo, only partially resolved by the recent Restart the FX8 to Activate the Output Pad Setting fix discussed in another thread, and my EBtech hum elimatinor is on its way, but perhaps I should try the non-humbuster approach, having always used my FAS -made cables...
 
Very interesting stuff about the ground loop and to be clear, I'm saying from what I can hear, the fx8 is transparent, however in front of my amp the humbuster cable isnt transparent compared to the Lava. Its funny I've played with the Lavas now for about 6 years and I think I have just got used to their sound and they most certainly do have a sound. My point really is dont do what I did and blindly follow the instruction manual without expecting a potential change in tone. I didnt mention in my previous post but now I'm having a very hard time telling the difference between true bypass on or off (no effects engaged of course), which is nothing short of amazing!
 
Origin8tor said:
Very interesting stuff about the ground loop and to be clear, I'm saying from what I can hear, the fx8 is transparent, however in front of my amp the humbuster cable isnt transparent compared to the Lava. Its funny I've played with the Lavas now for about 6 years and I think I have just got used to their sound and they most certainly do have a sound. My point really is dont do what I did and blindly follow the instruction manual without expecting a potential change in tone. I didnt mention in my previous post but now I'm having a very hard time telling the difference between true bypass on or off (no effects engaged of course), which is nothing short of amazing!
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We're ALL GOOD here.......& I'm just trying to tie-in my experience with the FX8 mkii & two totally different amps. One with no buzz or tone suck....& one with a lot of SUCK & BUZZ!

My point is the same as yours......There are MANY factors when a buzz or hum is involved......Do NOT rule out anything!

I tried regular cables & removed some buzz with my Legacy set-up...but the REAL answer was "Use the Hum-Buster's &left the ground on the Legacy 3 w/ an Ebtech Hum X".

Again, glad you got it worked out........

X
 
X-Mann said:
We're ALL GOOD here.......& I'm just trying to tie-in my experience with the FX8 mkii & two totally different amps. One with no buzz or tone suck....& one with a lot of SUCK & BUZZ!

My point is the same as yours......There are MANY factors when a buzz or hum is involved......Do NOT rule out anything!

I tried regular cables & removed some buzz with my Legacy set-up...but the REAL answer was "Use the Hum-Buster's &left the ground on the Legacy 3 w/ an Ebtech Hum X".

Again, glad you got it worked out........

X
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YAY!! The HumX on my Runt pretty much did the trick.........
 
Yes I had the same tone suck issue as Origin8tor in both the 4CM and the 2 CM. I replaced the humbuster cable with a normal guitar cable from the pre-out to the amp and it fixed the issue. Plus the noise levels reduced as well.
 
It would be interesting to know how dirty you guys play. My tones range from clean-ish to sort of medium gain by today's standards. Certainly nothing approaching high gain metal. I have no issues with the humbusters. At least none that I have to compensate for. I do notice that the bypassed tone in 2CM is a tad brighter than guitar > cord > amp. Again nothing that I even have to compensate for at the amp. 1-2% difference max.
 
As a freelance/session musician I play in all styles (musical theatre, Country, Jazz , Fusion, Rock, etc) and use lots of different gear - so my cleans have to be super clean and I need to have minimal noise levels. I feel that the FX8 Mark II does contour the sound and adds a sheen to your tone - in a good way. Feels like an addition of a subtle exciter aka Sonic Maximiser, and a subtle compression that tightens up the mids and the bottom end - or it could just be that is what you get with the digital to analogue convertors within the unit. Scenario 1: Replacing the humbuster cable on the pre-out with a standard guitar cable made a small but noticeable difference when going from FX into a Fender Prosonic amp - almost like releasing a choking effect on the signal and the noise levels also reduced. Scenario 2: Replacing the humbuster cable made a huge difference when I had to send the signal from the FX8 to an Atomic Amplifire Box that went direct to the PA. With the humbuster cable the clean sounds were clipped on the higher frequency and the mids felt compressed and sounded a little out of phase. After replacing the humbuster with a normal cable it fixed the issues. Noise levels also dropped using the standard guitar cable.
 
Origin8tor said:
My point really is dont do what I did and blindly follow the instruction manual without expecting a potential change in tone.
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glad it's working, but i've never experienced that issue using Humbuster cables. are you certain the TRS end was connected to the FX8 and the TS end to your amp? also did you try swapping the Humbuster cables to see if perhaps that one specific cable isn't working properly.

again, use what works, but to say "don't use humbusters from the Pre Out to your amp" is also a type of blindly follow situation ;)

i'm just trying to figure out what possibly went wrong.
 
chris said:
glad it's working, but i've never experienced that issue using Humbuster cables. are you certain the TRS end was connected to the FX8 and the TS end to your amp? also did you try swapping the Humbuster cables to see if perhaps that one specific cable isn't working properly.

again, use what works, but to say "don't use humbusters from the Pre Out to your amp" is also a type of blindly follow situation ;)

i'm just trying to figure out what possibly went wrong.
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Yes all connected correctly. Will swap humbuster cables at the next gig and try again. They are all brand new cables .. but I guess you never know.
 
devgop said:
As a freelance/session musician I play in all styles (musical theatre, Country, Jazz , Fusion, Rock, etc) and use lots of different gear - so my cleans have to be super clean and I need to have minimal noise levels. I feel that the FX8 Mark II does contour the sound and adds a sheen to your tone - in a good way. Feels like an addition of a subtle exciter aka Sonic Maximiser, and a subtle compression that tightens up the mids and the bottom end - or it could just be that is what you get with the digital to analogue convertors within the unit. Scenario 1: Replacing the humbuster cable on the pre-out with a standard guitar cable made a small but noticeable difference when going from FX into a Fender Prosonic amp - almost like releasing a choking effect on the signal and the noise levels also reduced. Scenario 2: Replacing the humbuster cable made a huge difference when I had to send the signal from the FX8 to an Atomic Amplifire Box that went direct to the PA. With the humbuster cable the clean sounds were clipped on the higher frequency and the mids felt compressed and sounded a little out of phase. After replacing the humbuster with a normal cable it fixed the issues. Noise levels also dropped using the standard guitar cable.
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Scenario 1 is really interesting. I play 2CM into vintage Fender style amps exclusively. I started out using a standard cable on the Pre Out. I never really had a noise problem per se, even though I often play a strat with passive SCs. I switched over to a Humbuster cable on the Pre Out just because it seemed like the best practice.

But that choking thing... I've heard and felt that a bit. Same for that vague out of phase thing in the mids. I'm really sensitive to midrange smear. I really like my wound strings to shimmer and not sound vague or smeared.

I'm going to A/B a standard high quality guitar cable with the Humbuster and report back. I can see the Humbuster being useful in a pinch in high noise environments, but maybe I don't need it all the time. Pit work is super demanding. Stray noise and hum is just not tolerated. So your observations carry additional weight for me.

Very interesting post. Thanks for sharing,
 
OK, I'm going back to standard cables for now.

The tone did seem ever so slightly more open and natural with standard versus the Humbuster. It was almost more of a feel thing.
 
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@devgop got me thinking about things. I definitely hear what he's saying about the tone when a humbuster cable is used. Added treble, a bit of out-of-phase midrange. Most notable with somewhat dry clean or semi-clean sounds for me.

I know that the humbuster injects the ambient noise signature back into the unit so that it can be processed and removed in real time. Anyone who has tried to remove noise from a recording (e.g., with Audacity) knows that it drastically affects the music portion of the recording, and generally does not work very well for that reason.

I think the FX8 noise processing is pretty musical. Certainly usable. But I also think that it is detectable. Those of us who don't really have a noise problem with standard cables might well decide that we prefer our output less processed.
 
Atmospheric said:
@devgop got me thinking about things. I definitely hear what he's saying about the tone when a humbuster cable is used. Added treble, a bit of out-of-phase midrange. Most notable with somewhat dry clean or semi-clean sounds for me.

I know that the humbuster injects the ambient noise signature back into the unit so that it can be processed and removed in real time. Anyone who has tried to remove noise from a recording (e.g., with Audacity) knows that it drastically affects the music portion of the recording, and generally does not work very well for that reason.

I think the FX8 noise processing is pretty musical. Certainly usable. But I also think that it is detectable. Those of us who don't really have a noise problem with standard cables might well decide that we prefer our output less processed.
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So, what's the consensus? Should someone buy humbuster cables or not for 4CM into an amp? I'll be using a Diezel VH4 and I value my amps tone.
 
I’ve never used the FX8 with humbuster cable because the regular cable always worked just fine with several amps (4CM). For me the FX8 was a dream come true with its zero tone suck feature, and I’m very picky about it!
Very curious to read some people noticing a coloring of the sound, the only thing a notice vs. true by pass is LESS noise, since the FX8 has a built in noise gate in the SEND AFAIK.
 
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