Tone Morphing: StepByStep

clarky said:
here's an outline of what's happening with the fundamental morphing setup process…
and this is also the sequence you follow to set it up..

- clean the tone
- fix up what the cleaning breaks
- sweeten the tone with cool fx
Click to expand...

One more question Clarky .... :)

Wich kind of Cab works better for you , cleaning from an higain amp ?
I always been a V30 , Marshall before and Mesa now guy so I'm used to this sound even for cleans ( Well .. I can't define my triple recto with master pushed really "pristine" clean but still in the awesome side )

I'm really happy with the OH Higain Stuff , but I'm exploring some new amp as I did here http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-recordings/88669-ambient-rock-fw15-03-a.html
The Marshall rocks even with that cab but the "fizz" is a little too much for what my ears "thinks about " that tone .

Last Question ... forgive me!!
I've replicated your basic recipe and test side by side with mine .
I found that cleaning "totally " add a little drastic change of volume across the Exp extension against a morphing to something more clean pushed .
I try to explain ...
If I run my exp slowly toe too heel ( for example 1\1,5 sec ) I always experimenting ( no matter wich kind of adjustement I make over the controller line ) a very good cleaning as expected until I'm on crunchy territories .
When I'm really near to cleaning completely I found always an " unnatural increase of volume\fizz " and then bamm a really nice clean .
I can't figure out how to tame that ...
Well if I'm going really fast super fine but If the morphing goal is to change really slow i s good only for the first half .

I doin't know ... surely is some user error ... maybe I need to search better in the "cleans fix \comp \ Peq side

Many thanks for your attention !
 
The cab makes almost no difference to the cleaning process..
So choose the cab/s you think work best work your amp of choice as you would normally..

personally, I've always liked a stereo cab with the AX Mix to the left and TV Mix to the right
it's simply my own preference..

the rise in volume at the mid-point in the XP's travel is due to the shape of the modifier graphs all working together so you have to play with these until they smooth up..
so we need to find the cause first..
- remove the modifiers from the mixer and bypass: mute the PEQ
-- does the 'volume hump' still happen?
--- no: you'll need to experiment with different curves in the mixer until you dial this out
--- yes: you'll need to experiment with the curve of the input-trim and / or input-gain to dial this out

different amps react differently to being cleaned, so there is an amount of fine tuning of the modifier curves to get things working nicely..
 
Today I have found the error in the shape of modifieres...
I let the Peq too much linear so the increase in low and hi-mid was too hard at middle position .

Found that , I reshaped all the "modifiers" for fixing the cleans with a very same shape and bamm... Works perfectly .

I added a Dimension D chorus in parallel kicking in with the clean side with a One hit mono delay really low in the mix ... Sweet

I have on almost all my patches a primary delay and a rev working in parallel and leaded by a different Ext pedal

Amps ...
Actually my 5153 Red patch use 2 UR Cabs ... Pete Thorn G12H25 Divby13 and a Mesa HGE 5881 ... Tone is really awesome but I need to work a little more with CabLab ... Only one cab let more room for further enhancements on fx and morphing sides.
That preset with 2 cabs and USB is at 90
 
this is my fault… I forgot to add my mixer settings…
I'll add them to the first post right now

sorry about that matey..
 
Noriuky73 said:
Today I have found the error in the shape of modifieres...
I let the Peq too much linear so the increase in low and hi-mid was too hard at middle position .

Found that , I reshaped all the "modifiers" for fixing the cleans with a very same shape and bamm... Works perfectly .
Click to expand...

added this to post 1

Mixer modifier settings:
Gain1 [which in my case is row1 and controls the PEQ level]
min=0
max=100
start=100
mid=0
end=0
slope=100
scale=1
offset=0
damping=4
off value=5

Gain2 [which in my case is row2 and controls the signal through the shunt]
min=100
max=0
start=100
mid=0
end=0
slope=100
scale=1
offset=0
damping=4
off value=5

notice that my mister gain curves are the same, but have the min and max values reversed
the idea here is that they have an identical behaviour in opposite directions
 
Noriuky73 said:
I added a Dimension D chorus in parallel kicking in with the clean side with a One hit mono delay really low in the mix ... Sweet

I have on almost all my patches a primary delay and a rev working in parallel and leaded by a different Ext pedal
Click to expand...

now you're really thinking "sweetening"
one of my presets has a phaser before the amp and a delay after
the phaser is always 'on' but the mix is controlled by the morphing modifier [with similar settings to the compressor] so once the XP passes the mid-point, from there to heel the phaser fades as the tone cleans..
also, the delay is setup similarly to the reverb

this means that the cleaned tone has a long reverb, with delay and phaser..
sounds beautiful..

Noriuky73 said:
Amps ...
Actually my 5153 Red patch use 2 UR Cabs ... Pete Thorn G12H25 Divby13 and a Mesa HGE 5881 ... Tone is really awesome but I need to work a little more with CabLab ... Only one cab let more room for further enhancements on fx and morphing sides.
That preset with 2 cabs and USB is at 90
Click to expand...

I only use hi-res and u-res cabs for recording [which is a whole different thing for me]..
I can't have two cab blocks in my presets cos they consume too much cpu.. which is why I use the stereo cab..
to my ears, the difference between them is so small, and the benefit of running two cabs so great that under normal playing conditions, the resolution don't matter to me..
 
Amp considerations when cleaning:

different amps will clean up a different rates
switch on boost, bright sat switches and these rates change again

also, different amps will take to this cleaning process very differently.. some will need more or less fixing up / compression than others

the obvious thing to try is essentially what I do.. take a hi-gain amp and clean it.. I use 5153Red and Herbert ch3..
I've found you can also get interesting results by taking a slightly lower gain amp that takes well to being boosted prior to the amp block..
this means that you are starting with an amp that is by nature 'cleaner' and so it'll clean up more easily and retain more body..
for example.. a 5153Blue.. but rather than having your input-trim start at 1.0 and reduce to clean up, have it start higher like 1.5 or 2.5 [or more if it'll take it] so you get more gain..
so… in addition to thinking "how can I clean a dirty amp?"
you can also think "how can I make this cleaner dirty amp dirtier and then cleaner?"

this means you have more choice when trying to find tones to match your music and playing style..
 
clarky said:
Amp considerations when cleaning:

I've found you can also get interesting results by taking a slightly lower gain amp that takes well to being boosted prior to the amp block..
this means that you are starting with an amp that is by nature 'cleaner' and so it'll clean up more easily and retain more body..
for example.. a 5153Blue.. but rather than having your input-trim start at 1.0 and reduce to clean up, have it start higher like 1.5 or 2.5 [or more if it'll take it] so you get more gain..
so… in addition to thinking "how can I clean a dirty amp?"
you can also think "how can I make this cleaner dirty amp dirtier and then cleaner?"

this means you have more choice when trying to find tones to match your music and playing style..
Click to expand...

That is an excellent point...
 
thinking on it… there are quite a few of these 'cleaner dirty' amps…
maybe a better way of thinking of them is 'almost hi-gain' amps..
three that immediately spring to mind are:
5153Blue
Herbert ch2+
VH4 ch3

also, if you turn on the Sat [ideal] switch with any of those guys, they'll start heading into hi-gain territory, but they can be a little different when cleaned to their hi-gain brethren [5153Red, Herbert ch3 and VH4 ch4 respectively]..

although I've not tried it yet, I can imagine the new Brit AFS 100's being interesting to play around with
 
R.D. said:
Geamala –

I'm not clarky, but this is something he addressed w/ me via P.M. when I first contacted him …. Here's what he said:
Click to expand...



I understand what you're saying, this is why I said put the cross fade before the Amps, not after.

Example: If you set Amp 1 (clean) to Input select Left and Amp 2 (high gain) to Input select Right. Place a panner before both amp blocks and and attach an expression pedal to control the panning. This will allows you to control the volume reaching the input of the amp blocks using an expression pedal which gives a more natural feel when moving between sounds.

Obviously this is different to Morphing which does seem cool but this is an easier way to get a similar effect.
 
Clarky, Thanks so much for the info. I'm having lots of fun but are you sure the 'mid' settings for the gain settings are correct?

Cuz when the mids are 0 you basically are waiting until the other gain becomes closer to zero which introduces massive volume drop.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong??
 
clarky said:
thinking on it… there are quite a few of these 'cleaner dirty' amps…
maybe a better way of thinking of them is 'almost hi-gain' amps..
three that immediately spring to mind are:
5153Blue
Herbert ch2+
VH4 ch3

also, if you turn on the Sat [ideal] switch with any of those guys, they'll start heading into hi-gain territory, but they can be a little different when cleaned to their hi-gain brethren [5153Red, Herbert ch3 and VH4 ch4 respectively]..

although I've not tried it yet, I can imagine the new Brit AFS 100's being interesting to play around with
Click to expand...

Actually my last experiment over your recipes was with a brit AFS2 and a ACB drive in front ... I felt this one easier to morphe and with the drive kicked in still in the almost hi-rock-gain
 
geamala said:
I understand what you're saying, this is why I said put the cross fade before the Amps, not after.

Example: If you set Amp 1 (clean) to Input select Left and Amp 2 (high gain) to Input select Right. Place a panner before both amp blocks and and attach an expression pedal to control the panning. This will allows you to control the volume reaching the input of the amp blocks using an expression pedal which gives a more natural feel when moving between sounds.

Obviously this is different to Morphing which does seem cool but this is an easier way to get a similar effect.
Click to expand...

I've never tried this method.. and I can see how this would work..
it'd certainly go some way to avoiding the quiet fizz you get when two amps are cross-faded..
I'm not so sure how convincing the mid-point tones would be though..
I guess if you never intend to 'ride' the XP, and so only intend to make heel to toe and back transitions that this could be a pretty effective method
 
dkijc said:
Clarky, Thanks so much for the info. I'm having lots of fun but are you sure the 'mid' settings for the gain settings are correct?

Cuz when the mids are 0 you basically are waiting until the other gain becomes closer to zero which introduces massive volume drop.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong??
Click to expand...

no you're not wrong… I just looked into this and found that the reason my settings are that extreme is that my amps [5153Red and Herbert ch3] also have the boost and sat switches on.. this means that my amps are now inherently far more resistant to cleaning..

it makes sense that if your amp choices [along with their boost / brit / sat settings] are less 'pumped' that you're modifier settings needn't be quite so strong..
the settings I showed are illustrative.. essentially, this is what I needed to do [cos the stock linear settings tend not to work] and so they show the general shapes of the curves..

most of the time spent setting this stuff up is generally noodling with the curves to get the rate and feel you prefer when making the tone transitions from dirty to clean and back..
you will have to play around with this.. consider my settings as a starting point, and then refine them until things really hit the spot for you..

you may have noticed that throughout the throw of the XP [from heel to toe], I like to hold my tone on the cleaner side for longer.
it's just a taste thing really because I like to have a lot of control over the area where the tone starts to breakup..
I make this area "large" so that I can make larger XP movements from heel to mid-point with only smallish tone changes..
it makes all those sexy 'almost fired up' tones much easier to locate when wiggling the XP with your foot..
 
Noriuky73 said:
Actually my last experiment over your recipes was with a brit AFS2 and a ACB drive in front ... I felt this one easier to morphe and with the drive kicked in still in the almost hi-rock-gain
Click to expand...

I'll guess that this is easier because it's essentially a less gainy amp [even when you pump it with the switches]..
so this means that you don't need to be quite so extreme with the cleaning process..
different amps take to this stuff very differently..
in fact, the same amp will behave very differently with the boost / sat switches off or on..

the simple rule of thumb is… hotter the amp, the more effort it'll take to clean it..
so your fix-up's and curve settings will need to be more extreme..
 
clarky said:
no you're not wrong… I just looked into this and found that the reason my settings are that extreme is that my amps [5153Red and Herbert ch3] also have the boost and sat switches on.. this means that my amps are now inherently far more resistant to cleaning..

it makes sense that if your amp choices [along with their boost / brit / sat settings] are less 'pumped' that you're modifier settings needn't be quite so strong..
the settings I showed are illustrative.. essentially, this is what I needed to do [cos the stock linear settings tend not to work] and so they show the general shapes of the curves..

most of the time spent setting this stuff up is generally noodling with the curves to get the rate and feel you prefer when making the tone transitions from dirty to clean and back..
you will have to play around with this.. consider my settings as a starting point, and then refine them until things really hit the spot for you..

you may have noticed that throughout the throw of the XP [from heel to toe], I like to hold my tone on the cleaner side for longer.
it's just a taste thing really because I like to have a lot of control over the area where the tone starts to breakup..
I make this area "large" so that I can make larger XP movements from heel to mid-point with only smallish tone changes..
it makes all those sexy 'almost fired up' tones much easier to locate when wiggling the XP with your foot..
Click to expand...

Ah. Your amps. I'm using a 'Plexi 50w Jump' and that setting wasn't working so I kind of placed it near 50% and it's working great. Yea, as much as it's all experimenting it's not too difficult, either.

Thanks, again!
 
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