AFIII Tone Match vs EVH but what is above 7k hz??

Hitoshi Kato

Hitoshi Kato

Inspired
Hi,

How can I replicate the below 'above 7khz' frequency just by using amp block and cab block?
Can someone advise me?

The below is tone match result between 'you really got me' intro and the preset shared by @ProgressiveRocco in here 'https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/tribute-to-eddie-van-halen-w-free-patch.166735/'

1637159261805.png

As you see, it seems VH tone include many frequency above 7k, but usually guitar amps and cabs don't include the frequency around this area.
Of course I can just use tone match block, but I'd like to know how I can achieve this 'above 7k' without tone match block.

Please also see the preset.

Actually this 'above 7k' happens a lot when I use tone match.
For example, Dream Theater guitar sound includes 'above 7k' but Tone Match with Petrucci Rig (factory preset) does less.

This area might come from post-processing, but I am curious if I can achieve only with Axe FX.
 

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Hitoshi Kato said:
As you see, it seems VH tone include many frequency above 7k,
Click to expand...
I believe you're misinterpreting what you see. The tone match is a correction, not a frequency response. Doing tone matches against references with limited range like that will often lead to ambiguous tone matches, especially in the upper frequencies. It's difficult to do a tone match against a song recording like that. Ideally, you should have an amp/cab rig, not a song recording, and do a full frequency sweep with it.
 
The cab block has a feature to let some of the raw input through above a frequency cutoff point. I think it's called Air. You could try dialing in a little >7k Air and see how that sounds.
 
GlennO said:
I believe you're misinterpreting what you see. The tone match is a correction, not a frequency response. Doing tone matches against references with limited range like that will often lead to ambiguous tone matches, especially in the upper frequencies. It's difficult to do a tone match against a song recording like that. Ideally, you should have an amp/cab rig, not a song recording, and do a full frequency sweep with it.
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot for your comments.
Apart from tone match, do you know what made this ‘above 7k’ in EVH tone?
I believe amp and cab don’t usually include a lot of the tone around that range.
 
jakel said:
The cab block has a feature to let some of the raw input through above a frequency cutoff point. I think it's called Air. You could try dialing in a little >7k Air and see how that sounds.
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot.
I didn’t know this function and sounds interesting.
But do you know what effect in real cab corresponds to this function?
 
Hitoshi Kato said:
Thanks a lot for your comments.
Apart from tone match, do you know what made this ‘above 7k’ in EVH tone?
I believe amp and cab don’t usually include a lot of the tone around that range.
Click to expand...
The tone match is not showing you the frequency response, just a correction. That means you can't conclude from the tone match that there is anything above 7kHz. When you get that kind of a curve in the upper frequencies, that usually means you don't have a good enough reference.
 
Hitoshi Kato said:
Thanks a lot.
I didn’t know this function and sounds interesting.
But do you know what effect in real cab corresponds to this function?
Click to expand...
I've heard some producers will bleed in some signal from the amp (before cab). A cab is just an EQ, which does filter out a lot of the higher frequencies as you say. Not all IRs are equal in this regard. Some are more fizzy; others are more dull. The amount of high frequency content changes a ton between amps, too.
 
You’re also mistaking a difference between guitar speakers - which have a roll off around 7k but will certainly contain plenty of frequencies above this and recorded sounds which may have shelving EQ wherever the mixer wants it
 
peteri said:
You’re also mistaking a difference between guitar speakers - which have a roll off around 7k but will certainly contain plenty of frequencies above this and recorded sounds which may have shelving EQ wherever the mixer wants it
Click to expand...
I understand this point then I wondered if reverb or room reflection sound consist above 7k.
As I wrote initially, I am wondering why tone match suggest above 7k.
 
Hitoshi Kato said:
Ok understood, then do you have any idea why tone match includes above 7k?
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Sorry, I don't know how else to explain this. The problem is you are misinterpreting the tone match. Nothing is "included" above 7k. You are simply using a poor reference, as songs often are, which leads to ambiguity in the upper frequencies. The tone match shows ambiguity above 7k, not the presence of sound.
 
GlennO said:
The tone match is not showing you the frequency response
Click to expand...
Correct: the resulting match is a correction, but worth noting: during the tone match process you are able to see the measured frequency response of the local and reference signals.
 
Admin M@ said:
Correct: the resulting match is a correction, but worth noting: during the tone match process you are able to see the measured frequency response of the local and reference signals.
Click to expand...
Sorry I am still wondering but, when tone match shows 'above 7k' like the screenshot I pasted initially, what is the message from the function?
Or what is the suggestion from the function?
Actually my tone is a bit bassy than EVH tone.
 
If the 'local' tone has less highs than the 'reference' tone, the tone match will try to correct for that. What you are seeing is the difference between the two tones. And don't kid yourself, there is almost always frequencies above 7k in recorded guitar tracks. Especially older Van Halen tracks. Even tape 'hiss' from older analog recordings can be added to the match.

How you play the piece plays a big roll in the success of a 'off-line' tone match. If you play with more pick noise, string slide noise, pinch harmonics, etc... that aren't in the original, it will drastically affect the frequencies of the 'local' signal'

I sometimes like to use high and/or low shelf filters on the reference material to remove excess frequencies during tone matching.
 
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Hitoshi Kato said:
Sorry I am still wondering but, when tone match shows 'above 7k' like the screenshot I pasted initially, what is the message from the function?
Click to expand...
When the reference contains very little energy in a frequency range (as is the case here above 6KHz), it is very difficult for any tone matching algorithm to get an accurate correction value, no matter how carefully you try to adhere to the original when you play the target. Consequently, in cases like this, you often get crazy correction amounts, especially for higher frequencies. The way to avoid this is to use a better reference.
 
GlennO said:
When the reference contains very little energy in a frequency range (as is the case here above 6KHz), it is very difficult for any tone matching algorithm to get an accurate correction value, no matter how carefully you try to adhere to the original when you play the target. Consequently, in cases like this, you often get crazy correction amounts, especially for higher frequencies. The way to avoid this is to use a better reference.
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Yes I totally understand the formula 0 * anything = 0, then if the local includes almost 0 amount above 7k and the reference does some, tone match suggest massive correction.

Now my interest goes to what made old EVH tone often includes those high frequency area even if small amount.
 
Moke said:
I sometimes like to use high and/or low shelf filters on the reference material to remove excess frequencies during tone matching.
Click to expand...
This. I've also done "mids matching" by filtering both reference and local with the same curves.
 
Hitoshi Kato said:
Now my interest goes to what made old EVH tone often includes those high frequency area even if small amount.
Click to expand...
That's not the right inquiry unless you've already looked closely enough at your local preset to understand why they aren't there.
Is there a Cab IR in it? If so, start there.
 
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