Tips/advice for "bright' guitars with the Axe-Fx?

T

TheMilkman

New Member
One of the few challenges I'm yet to overcome with the Axe is the way it responds to "bright" guitars (basically, singe coil guitars strats etc)- particularly low-mid gain crunch type tones. In my continued experimentation they have a tendency to sound harsh and unpleasant in a way that is unlike a regular guitar amp, eg the various rattles and buzzes in particular that would be considered part of the characteristic sound of an enthusiastically played strat often come through the axe as harsh artificial sounding distortion depending on the specific patch/sims etc.

Have played around with numerous workarounds, pre/post eq blocks amp/cab combos etc without really cracking it, rolling down the tone helps, turnign the master down can help, settling for warmer tones is ok too..... I just find it hard to get a bright strat>marshall tone from the axe without it sounding artificial, perhaps its the axes way of telling me certain tones are just too bright :). The FAS Crunch model with bright switch engaged is a good one to play with for exaggerated nasty effect :)

So, anybody have some tips for getting the most out of icepicky singe coiled guitars with the Axe?
 
Did you already try to use the Hi Cut, the Transformer Hi Freq and the Hi Freq resonance in the Amp Block?

Well here are a few threads dealing with that or containing presets which don't have ice pick highs:
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/ultra-std-recordings/36977-marshally-clips-4.html
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/ultra-std-preset-exchange/35216-fractal-patch-contest-3.html
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/ultra-std-discussion/37222-tips-eliminating-ice-pick-highs.html
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/ultra-std-recordings/35564-brownface-kinda-thang.html
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/ultra-std-recordings/20983-basic-marshall-preset.html

If you post a preset and/or soundclip I might be able to give you more specific advice :)

Jens
 
Might help to know which amp models you're working with too, if you haven't tried them all. Some of them (the Cornford comes to mind) tend towards bright, just as their real counterparts do.
 
Got to agree with the OP.

I actually sent my Standard back 18 months ago as I though I had a problem. On bright patches I was getting a kind of Ghost note on top of the note I was playing. There was nothing wrong - and G66 even replaved the innards just in case. It made no difference. Its the same whether I go amp/Cab or into my PC - doesnt matter what cables I use, or even which guitar.

Main culprits are my Ash Tele - oarticularly on teh middlt position, and my Alder strat - again pos 3 whichis bridge/neck in parallell similar to the tele and particulaly with aggressive picking (to accentuate the dynamics). A compressor up front makes it worse.

The Blackface with bright engaged, Top Boost with bright engaged are the two amps I have particular problems with. when I turn off the bright it goes away. I tend to run these amps with master dimed, and turning it down to 7 or so and it does away. I can compensate with pre-amp gain and its not so bad. Its even there with a stock preset. THe "streets have no name" patch. If you strip away all the FX, and run Amp only (into aPA and cab) the same artifacts are there.

It seems its actually the PA sim (and to a lesser extent the Pre-amp gain). Onec its crfunchy its fine - if its clean its find BUT just at the point where it starts to break, there seems to be only 2 notes. The fundamental and a ghost. Its almost like getting fret buzz, but its not. Played accoustically or through a real amp its not there.

It actually drives me crazy. I had no issues for the first 14 month with my Axe, then I started dialling in brighter patches. Once the AFX came back from G66 I turned off the bright on the offending patches and all was well. Recently Ive been trying bright patches agaion - with the same issue. It appears that its high Freq's only that are affected and as I say just when the PA starts to break up.

Im hopefull that G2 sims on the AFX2 wont have the same issue (at least I hope not - as Im on the list and for the cash Im outlaying could keep my standard and add a decent valve amp) - and always thought I was on my own as no-body else seemed to tave the issue, but what the OP describes would fit what Ive been hearing for 18 months now.

Im at work at present, but will post a couple of patches where I have an issue once I get home. Id appreciate anyone with an Ash Tele - or another bright guitar, could give it a try and see what they think. It may be of course that the patch is way to bright anyway, and I need a reference from a real amp - a reality check if you like. After using the AFC exclusively for overy 3 years now it is quite possible Ive strayed too far from what an amp SHOULD sound like, and am trying to get such a bright sound (for a specific purpose) even a real amp would sound harsh/horrid.
 
That's why I bought the Redwirez. Once I've found MY IRs with the right roll-off in the highs that problem was gone. Took me a while to search trough the whole collection to get out what I like and what my guitar likes, but it was worth it. Since that I always use the same combinations of cabs for certain sounds.
 
In my experience lots of tube amps , Marshalls and fenders alike, have harsh high end frequencies when turned up.
This is mostly from experiences with other people sound checking on festivals, and rehearsing on other peoples gear but still.
I just find it realistic and a thing to tweak yourself out of, but then again I don't know real versions of most of the amps.

If you play a bright amp, like the blackface, and a bright guitar, it might also be natural that it sounds better with the bright switch off?I have never engaged
the bright switch on my fender twin, there is no need for it, especially if I play my strat. To me it sounds unrealistic to expect that to be a pleasant sound,
it probably is not on the real amp either.

Weren't bright switches made for playing with lower volumes originally? (Not that it is an argument for turning it off when using cranked master volume, I just thought I read that somewhere)

I think Jay's advice in this thread http://forum.fractalaudio.com/ultra-std-discussion/37222-tips-eliminating-ice-pick-highs.html is very helpful.
A thing to experiment with too is the PEQ before the amp, somehow I intuitively would put it after the amp, he mentions it later in the thread and in the marshall clips with
both AxeII and AxeI it is used quite effectively.

Jens
 
I dont mind the Ice-Pick highs IF thats what Im going for. Its the double note/ghost note - almost like the PA is starting to distort by adding a distinctive extra note. I dont hear this with the real amps. its almost like the AFX CANT do the really shrill, ice pick top end and instead generates harmoncs. The worse place is the top E opwn, and at the 12th fret. Not the only place, but definately the worse.
 
paulmapp8306 said:
I dont mind the Ice-Pick highs IF thats what Im going for. Its the double note/ghost note - almost like the PA is starting to distort by adding a distinctive extra note. I dont hear this with the real amps. its almost like the AFX CANT do the really shrill, ice pick top end and instead generates harmoncs. The worse place is the top E opwn, and at the 12th fret. Not the only place, but definately the worse.
Click to expand...

I would have to hear it to say anything useful. And even then I am not an expert.
In my experience it does a convincing ice-pick sound on the fender amps, but I don't like that sound too much on the real amps and on the Axe so I tend to use settings
that avoids it in both cases.

Jens
 
Thanks a lot for all those links Jens! ;)

and the OP for starting this thread....learned some nice things here......I too suffer from some of that 'ice-pick' tone on the single coil guitars when I crank up the volume...sounds very harsh and digital, and I even put some real tube in front and back which didn't help....hoping that some of the suggestions here will fix my issues at next band jam :D
 
Heres a patch. Its emphasised to show the effect better. Its set for Amp/CAb (though there is a cab on there if you wish t use FRFR).

As I said - Ash Tele on middle selection shows it best. Soft strumming is fine, but snap the top E and its horrible. I m guessing its the PA Sim beginning to distort but Ive not hear a real amp sound like thios. Having said taht Ive never played an AC so or a bright fender so??

=http://www.4shared.com/file/vsozYLKq/AC30________________.html]AC30 .csv

I recorded an audio clip too - but it got horribly mutilated on conversion. The link is here - its got all sorts of warbling/phasing going on but yo CAN hear the effect. You can download the WMA file and while that has a little effect too, its much better. The original pro-Tools clip was fine ???? but I dont know how to host a protools format clip. sorry.

You get the idea though

AFX CDistortion Clip.wma

had another listen - the <P3 version streamed from the site is TERRIBLE. The original was in converted to wma out of pro-tools, then converted to mp3 by the site. Not nice. The downloadable clip is WMA (unconverted) and is better. Still not like the original though. Havent got the time at present to do a better job. It does show the distortion though.

Im hoping, its what would happen naturally on a real amp set this bright (though it doesnt sound like it to my ears).
 
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I can't open your preset file, the link is messed up.

I can however hear what you mean with the overtone. It sounds like a high freq resonance thing to me, but that's a guess.

I also thought that was part of the sound of an AC30 that it could do that. I was trying to find a clip of The Edge where he
uses that sound, but I couldn't. The song "Where the streets have no name" has that chime/overtone thing going on to me,
though not in a nasty way :)

Towards the end of this clip there is something similar: VOX AC30-clean w/effects - YouTube

Jens
 
Try this:

AC30 .csv - 4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download

Thing is, its not just the Tele. My Strat on Pos 3, and my PRS on Pos 2/4 also does it, though to a lesser extent. Its also not just the AC30 - the Blackface does it and so does the US Clean.

Im paranoid at the moment lol. I dreading that the A/D converters are buggered as I need to sell the standard to part pay for the AFX2 when my name comes up.

Just hoping its normal - that all the AFX do it IF you set up your patch ultra bright.

Just listened to the clip. Theres some at the start as well. I feel a little better now lol Just need to know all AFXs do it now.
 
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I have found that ghost notes are more of a problem of settings with the guitar.. bridge, saddles and neck or/and Fret problems... and I think that is the reason you feel the problem is more evident if you play harder... In my case always happened with Fender guitars, strats and one Tele. None of this happens with Suhr guitars or Les Paul std. The fenders tend to do this on the 15-17 frets on E or B strings mainly.... Maybe you need to check the setup in your guitars... In my guitars the effect grew with use, I guess the wood has to have something to do with the neck bending and twisting, also the frets wearing out more in your favorite spots..... hope it helps. But Axe is not the problem cause the ghost high pitch note was gone the minute I changed to nicer guitars and SS frets hehe...
 
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I still can't open the preset even if I can download it now. Why not export a normal preset file and use the attachments in the forum?

I can't know for sure but I really doubt that it is you Axe, I think it is just the way the amp block (and probably also to some degree the real amps?) react to
settings like that.

Jens

Edit and here's another example of the real amp producing the high frequency overtones on the high notes :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEsXac6c37g
 
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Here you go - an attached SysEx file. You learn something every day.

I get the note on all my guitars - and one PRS only had a fret dress and setup two weeks ago so ??
 

Attachments

  • AC30.syx
    2 KB · Views: 5
Well I just made one myself. Here's the recording:



Just a patch with amp and cab. I think this is what you mean.

Jens
 
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Yeh - thats it. Mine is more pronounced but maybe its an even brighter patch, or the amp is driven harder.

Guess its meant to be. Thats a world off my shoulders. I wont be sweating that whoever buys my AFX will return it as not working correctly.
 
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