Thoughts on FW 14 AST and other Clean-ish amps?

[Gamedojo]

I think the Nuclear-Tone clean works well for such a low watt amp:


And here is a vibroverb clean:

And a princton Reverb clean:

All in all, I think the cleans are the best they've ever been with FW14. There is a muscle behind the clean IMO

I'm a bit curious about the gain taper on some of the NMV amp models in FW14. It seems like it has made some of the more vintage, slightly distorted-style amps (AST, Fenders, etc) really gainy.

I own a real Atomic Space Tone Jr, which is a similar circuit but single-ended, and even at just one 6V6, it has WAY less gain than the FW 14 AST model on similar settings. With my Suhr Pro S1, I can stay clean even with with the bridge humbucker when the volume is below 5. I can't seem to get a clean tone at all out of the FW14 AST without messing with the Input Trim.

I know Cliff has mentioned that the Master Volume taper doesn't necessarily match the real amp (please correct me if I'm wrong). Does that extend also to non-MV amps since the Input Drive is effectively the Volume control on the real amp?

Here's a nice vid of a real AST as a reference (only because it includes the settings on the amp)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gUm1fDKrQ4

 

[nambutio]

I think you should throw out everything when going to a new FW. Try new cabs, or readjust the ones you know.

I've been getting clean, high definition tone since this new FW. It has not been seamless, but the release notes 'This may change your existing presets' does not kid around.

I suggest posting a preset that is too 'gainy' and have us take a look.

R

Yes, that's what I did! This does not diminish the Axe, he is animal. I think instead make life easier for me, of course, since I use Mesa Boogie Simul Class Power Ninety and 2 Cabx12 with V30.

 

[nambutio]

I do seem to be getting slightly better results with the Double Verb on a brand new patch. I might try creating a from-scratch AST/Carr patch and see how that goes... so far I'm acceptably clean with the Input Drive on 3 (which is stupid crazy loud on a real Twin if I remember correctly).

Yes, exactly! When I say clean is clean, maybe that's the confusion! My setup is Mesa Boogie Simul Class Ninety with two cabs 2x12 with v30.

 

[notalemming]

I think you should throw out everything when going to a new FW. Try new cabs, or readjust the ones you know.

I've been getting clean, high definition tone since this new FW. It has not been seamless, but the release notes 'This may change your existing presets' does not kid around.

I suggest posting a preset that is too 'gainy' and have us take a look.

R

On 100+ presets that's not too practical & not going to happen. (and shouldn't need to happen IMHO) It's not that I can't get clean sounds, it's getting harder & harder to do it. If this keeps up, we are going to run out of options to get a clean sound. Input on .3, master on 1.5 input gain on .105 LOL!

 

[nambutio]

On 100+ presets that's not too practical & not going to happen. (and shouldn't need to happen IMHO) It's not that I can't get clean sounds, it's getting harder & harder to do it. If this keeps up, we are going to run out of options to get a clean sound. Input on .3, master on 1.5 input gain on .105 LOL!

That's what I think. The Axe already has many high gains amps. could make it easier with the cleans.
Thanks Sr.

 

[notalemming]

I like the tone of v4 & when I want a light or moderately dirty sound, v14 sounds great but 2/3rds of my presets are clean & I mean CLEAN. All the amps I am familiar with did not distort as easily as they do in the Axe, especially now in v14. (Twin, 65 Bassman, Superverb, Deluxe) Maybe after 40+ years the examples that were modeled didn't hold up all that well but they didn't distort like that back when they were new-10 years old. I played bass through my 65 Bassman & worked with another bass player that had an even older one & on 5, they sounded cleaner on bass than the Axe does on 2 or 3 with a guitar. I had to turn mine up to 7 to get much distortion at all with a Les Paul. IMHO these amps are going in the wrong direction as far as the distortion characteristics are concerned. I love the Axe & this is not meant as a put down & I appreciate all the work that has gone into it. I also appreciate the Cliff listens to his customers so hopefully, that will happen here.

 

[Gamedojo]

With all due respect, you are using memory to judge how much "distortion" you hear in amps from tones you heard in the room.

Cliff dials these amps using measurements of clipping. Precise numbers that equate to exactly how an amp is responding.

I have a feeling your idea of clean, isn't that clean if you were to put a mic in front of those "clean" amps.

IMO, I've found the drive taper to be nearly exact in the fender amps. If you want clean, never go beyond 2-2.5 on the knob. Just like my old Super Reverb.

I like the tone of v4 & when I want a light or moderately dirty sound, v14 sounds great but 2/3rds of my presets are clean & I mean CLEAN. All the amps I am familiar with did not distort as easily as they do in the Axe, especially now in v14. (Twin, 65 Bassman, Superverb, Deluxe) Maybe after 40+ years the examples that were modeled didn't hold up all that well but they didn't distort like that back when they were new-10 years old. I played bass through my 65 Bassman & worked with another bass player that had an even older one & on 5, they sounded cleaner on bass than the Axe does on 2 or 3 with a guitar. I had to turn mine up to 7 to get much distortion at all with a Les Paul. IMHO these amps are going in the wrong direction as far as the distortion characteristics are concerned. I love the Axe & this is not meant as a put down & I appreciate all the work that has gone into it. I also appreciate the Cliff listens to his customers so hopefully, that will happen here.

 

[Johnnyh64]

I agree that although it's possible to get a good clean sound, it's getting harder to do so. It's so very easy to get 50 different varieties of a death metal patch but so many of the moderate breakup and clean tones are seeming to be a little harder to attain. It would be nice to see more options for clean to moderate breakup without the compressed breakup coming in so fast. Maybe I don't know what I'm doing, very possible.

 

[notalemming]

I can't get much above 1.5 on many of these amps & be clean. As far as my memory goes, it is fine. I played these amps for years playing R & B & funk. We were not looking for distortion, even on solos. We were playing in gymnasiums with no FOH support other than for vocals & horns. The amps were loud & clean. That is my real world experience & no amount of digital measurements can change that. As I said, maybe these amps distort a lot more now due to age, I don't know. They didn't back then.

 

[Gamedojo]

Your experience definitely confirms my theory.

One BIG aspect about the axefx that gets overlooked is VOLUME. Players can tweak and play with settings on the axefx and the volume is exactly the same and at an extremely comfortable low-volume. this low volume, combined with the fact that the tones are that of a Mic'd guitar amp gives sounds that LOTS of players simply are unaware of.

Those amps you played in gymnasiums sounded clean but they where FREAKING LOUD and this volume and room effect gives an impression of a cleaner liquid tone.

I promise you, if you had mic'd those amps in those gymnasiums, and played back the recordings, you would be really surprised how much clipping was really going on. Not extreme, but I think you would find it on par with what the axefx produces.

Can you post some clips of your patches, and your distortion you are having trouble dialing out? You say you can't put the amps above 1.5, but the two fender amps in the clips I posted above are both at 4. It could really help to extend this conversation to a way of helping folks dial in the cleans they are after.

I can't get much above 1.5 on many of these amps & be clean. As far as my memory goes, it is fine. I played these amps for years playing R & B & funk. We were not looking for distortion, even on solos. We were playing in gymnasiums with no FOH support other than for vocals & horns. The amps were loud & clean. That is my experience & no amount of digital measurements can change that. As I said, maybe these amps distort a lot more now due to age, I don't know. They didn't back then.

 

[notalemming]

Your experience definitely confirms my theory.

One BIG aspect about the axefx that gets overlooked is VOLUME. Players can tweak and play with settings on the axefx and the volume is exactly the same and at an extremely comfortable low-volume. this low volume, combined with the fact that the tones are that of a Mic'd guitar amp gives sounds that LOTS of players simply are unaware of.

Those amps you played in gymnasiums sounded clean but they where FREAKING LOUD and this volume and room effect gives an impression of a cleaner liquid tone.

I promise you, if you had mic'd those amps in those gymnasiums, and played back the recordings, you would be really surprised how much clipping was really going on. Not extreme, but I think you would find it on par with what the axefx produces.

Can you post some clips of your patches, and your distortion you are having trouble dialing out? You say you can't put the amps above 1.5, but the two fender amps in the clips I posted above are both at 4. It could really help to extend this conversation to a way of helping folks dial in the cleans they are after.

I didn't say I only played in those situations. I have also recorded a lot, played large venues, concerts miced up & small clubs. Micing an amp does not make it distort more unless you overdrive the mic pre. Again, I didn't say it was impossible to get a clean sound, it is harder now on v14 & harder than it should be IMHO. Otherwise I guess we can agree to disagree & that's fine with me.

 

[Gamedojo]

The amp doesn't distort anymore, but the perceived amount of clipping sure does! Ever heard of the old rule of thumb to play with LESS distortion then you think you need to when you head into a recording studio? In fact that idea of less distortion is true all the time. As guitar players we hear less distortion when we play and I have No idea the science behind that, but its a reality.

I'm simply trying to point out that what you perceive as clean from your real amps is not as clean as you think and I believe you are struggling with the axefx because you are trying to capture the "in the room" clean amp vs. "recorded" clean amp.

There's a reason why guys like Nile Rodgers recorded almost all the time direct to the mixing board.

..Micing an amp does not make it distort more unless you overdrive the mic pre...

 

[notalemming]

As guitar players we hear less distortion when we play and I have No idea the science behind that, but its a reality.

Then why am I hearing more distortion when I play v14 as opposed to v13? I am not struggling with the Axe. I have had it since v1. I am getting the sounds I want but should not be having to make so many under the hood adjustments to get a simple clean Fenderish sound.

There's a reason why guys like Nile Rodgers recorded almost all the time direct to the mixing board.

I have never once in 45+ years of playing had to do that to get the clean sound I wanted in the studio.

 

[Gamedojo]

Then why am I hearing more distortion when I play v14 as opposed to v13? I am not struggling with the Axe. I have had it since v1. I am getting the sounds I want but should not be having to make so many under the hood adjustments to get a simple clean Fenderish sound.

Because FW14 is more realistic to a real amp and how it works vs FW13.

Again, I'd like to hear a clip that you think is unacceptable fender clean. You sound like you are really struggling and I've never had much issue. Click Vibroverb, set all controls to six volume at 2... great fender clean.

I have never once in 45+ years of playing had to do that to get the clean sound I wanted in the studio.

I never said you HAD to do that...i'm just pointing out that if you truely want a 100% clean sound, direct to board or SS amp is a route pros do all the time.

 

[exleper]

I noticed the same thing notalemming. I use the Bogner Shiva block for my clean tone and now it has a bit of breakup where it didn't before. I can't seem to get it as clean when I strum unless I play very light which rarely happens live. Not a huge difference but its a little less clean.

Sent from Windows Phone Tapatalk

 

[barhrecords]

I'm a big fan of clean fender tones. And still own a smattering of vintage Fender amps

I wouldn't say it's "hard" or "difficult" to get a totally clean Fender tone from the Fractal.

But, by default you get a "pushed" Fender tone. When you from scratch start to set one up, you have to back off the input to get totally clean vs. defaulting totally clean and driving the input to get dirty.

Six of one and half a dozen of the other really.

I do have to back off the input on all my clean Fender presets and Vox presets.

 

[nambutio]

I think the Nuclear-Tone clean works well for such a low watt amp:


And here is a vibroverb clean:

And a princton Reverb clean:

All in all, I think the cleans are the best they've ever been with FW14. There is a muscle behind the clean IMO

Sir, with all due respect, your recordings sound like a little crunch for me, not clean.

 

[notalemming]

I'm a big fan of clean fender tones. And still own a smattering of vintage Fender amps

I wouldn't say it's "hard" or "difficult" to get a totally clean Fender tone from the Fractal.

But, by default you get a "pushed" Fender tone. When you from scratch start to set one up, you have to back off the input to get totally clean vs. defaulting totally clean and driving the input to get dirty.

Six of one and half a dozen of the other really.

I do have to back off the input on all my clean Fender presets and Vox presets.

Exactly, only now you have to do it even more for no apparent reason which, IMHO, is going in the wrong direction. Not everyone wants hi-gain or even mid gain. There is that galore in the Axe already. Why make it harder to get crystal squeaky clean? This happened once before in v5 or v6, somewhere around there. Even the Mesa cleans got gainy. Then it got better. Now it's back to being too gainy. It seems this update was geared for crunch to hi-gainers. Can we get to a middle ground & leave the Fenders, Voxes, etc. out of the gain wars?

 

[nambutio]

Exactly, only now you have to do it even more for no apparent reason which, IMHO, is going in the wrong direction. Not everyone wants hi-gain or even mid gain. There is that galore in the Axe already. Why make it harder to get crystal squeaky clean? This happened once before in v5 or v6, somewhere around there. Even the Mesa cleans got gainy. Then it got better. Now it's back to being too gainy. It seems this update was geared for crunch to hi-gainers. Can we get to a middle ground & leave the Fenders, Voxes, etc. out of the gain wars?

Truth! +1

 

[UnsungHeroGuitars]

Just to trot this one out again, have any of you tried lowering the Input Trim in the Amp Block to 0.5..?

I first discovered the impact that could have when looking to keep things clean after switching in a Wah Block, but it's helped keep clean things cleaner too (I do use humbuckers exclusively though)