thinking about going the tube power amp cab route

gsegal said:
has anyone tried the carvin ts 100 by any chance? It's a bit heavy for my taste 25lbs, but I know carvin makes good stuff and It's a bit cheaper then mesa stuff. I like the 50w idea of the atomic power amp and its light the only thing is it's not rack mountable so it's another thing to grab
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I use it and it sounds great. The presence knob is nice and the amp is very neutral (I still use the power amp sims to some extent). It's plenty loud, but I still feel like it's not 100 watts. Still well worth it, though.
 
gittarzann said:
What about a Mesa Simul-Satellite combo amp?

http://www.bazaar-world.com/guitar-amp- ... -AMPLIFIER
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I've had a Simul-Satellite since 1993.
The Axe sounds way better through my ART SLA1.
I normally drive an EVM-12L in an open backed cab with either of the power amps.

The Mesa Simul-Class power sections are very a very coloured sound. They work best with preamps made by Mesa that were designed to be played through those power amps.
If you want use the Axe w/o its power amp sim, i.e. as a preamp only, using only the Mesa amp sims, then the Satellite might be a good option.

But to me, the real advantage of the Axe is that you can simulate power amp overdrive at low volume levels and that you can place your hi-end time-based effects, like reverb *post power amp overdrive*.
If you use the Axe as a preamp only driving the Satellite then you'll have to play un-godly loud to get any sort of power amp overdrive, even with the Satellite in its quasi "Class A" lower power mode along with its even lower Tweed Power mode.
Plus, all your beautiful time-based Axe effects like Reverb will be distorted by the Satellite's clipping.

The above is true for any guitar-oriented tube power amp you will ever use with the Axe.
If it's a high wattage amp then it it will give you the headroom you need, so that you can use the Axe's power amp sims if you desire, but it will significantly colour the sound.
If it's a low wattage power amp it will both colour the sound and distort that signal that you paid all that money to obtain by buying the Axe.

Now, people can use their Axes any way that they want and if they get the results they want then it's all good.
But IMO the thing that makes the Axe special is that it models the entire signal chain of a well thought-out guitar rig.
Effects loops in guitar amps were invented to mimic the types of tones that guys were getting the studio by driving a small tube amp hard, putting a mic on it and adding effects like reverb after the mic.
I.e. An effects loop on an integrated tube amp is a compromise. They work best when all your overdrive comes from the preamp, not the power amp. If the hi-end effects like reverb come before the power amp then when you drive that power amp into distortion you also distort the reverb.
The Axe allows us to place our hi-end time-based effects like reverb *after* the simulated power amp distortion, and that's where these effects *should* go for "ideal" results.
No if you're looking to distort your reverb etc. then you may well want to run it into a distorting power amp. But that's not the way it's usually done or intended to be done. Of course, originally, designers never wanted guitar amps to distort either. That unexpected usage became the norm and now they design it into the amp functions. So if it works for you it works.

I dunno. Y'all should know this stuff before you go out an buy a piece of kit like the Axe.
Whenever people say that the Axe sounds better through a tube power amp what they're really saying is that the Axe's power amp sim is not up to snuff. I don't really believe that myself.
 
Hi Everyone
This topic has always interested me, and for more than 10 years I have been using modelers into tube power amps. I have also experimented a lot with solid state but never been happy before the Axe-fx came along.

The following is just my take on the debate--
For me the tube amps always sounded better even when at lower volumes where the distortion and compression characteristics were hardly an issue. I think that the main difference is the damping factor of SS amps. This is usually very high and keeps the speaker under tight control. The tube amps damping factor is usually much lower allowing the speaker to naturally interact with the amp and the feel is looser and more "musical" to many. (If you want to get a little nerdy you might like to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor )
Amongst other things the Axe-fx can simulate this using the LF resonance and frequency parameters. A tube amp naturally interacts with the speaker at a certain frequency which is different for every cabinet, so the key to a more accurate simulation and feel is finding the "correct" frequency and amount for these settings to match your cab. so that it behaves in a similar way to being tube driven. This is probably not so important when using a full range set up as you are building a tone from scratch, but when using SS amps into a guitar cab (open or closed back) if you want to make it feel like a tube power stage, hitting the sweet spot with these parameters is important. Also a tube power amp may have a different turnover frequency for the presence control from the default value in the Axe's power amp sim, so this is a factor too.

You COULD just drastically lower the damping factor of your SS amp simply by inserting a 4.7 ohm 50-100 watt resistor in the speaker line. This does 'throw away' a lot of power in heat but loosens up the feel quite noticeably as it changes the way the speaker is driven. I have tried this and it seems to work pretty well. You can also change the response by making the resistor bigger or smaller.

Anyway - I have now successfully managed to simulate my tube combos using an SLA-2 by measuring the response of the combo power amp across the speaker terminals, and I was then able to closely duplicate this using the Axe-fx advanced parameters.
It's not quite the same but close enough for me......I even did a gig recently using my tube combos just as speaker cabinets. I got several comments along the lines of "nice to see your old combo amps back, you can't beat tubes it all sounds miles better ...."
 
I'm running mine through a Carvin TS-100 and a stereo cab and love the way it sounds. The only downside is that it's really heavy. I've been thinking of getting a lightweight SS power amp, but after reading this thread, I'm not so sure. May just buy one as a backup and see what happens...

Admittedly, the only times I've run the Axe through a SS poweramp was back in the version 6-7 days, so I can't say whether the TS-100 sounds "better" than anything in particular. All I know is that I've gotten compliments on my live sound from old-schoolers who use tube amps.
 
Hi Jezza,
thank you for clarifying this. I had the same idea when I came accross the notion of damping but I was not sure about the technical background. SS-Amps sound defined – a sort of compressed in my ears and I just like the looseness of a tube amp. I was not able yet to achieve this by tweaking the Advanced Section. The “real thing” still sounds a tick better to me.
 
There is another way to use a tube power amp with the Axe that hasn't been discussed here and has a lot to offer in regards to overall feel and sound - if done correctly. The results are hard to describe, but basically it's hybrid sound that bridges the gap between FRFR and tube power amp/cab. It's a very bubbly feel and tone that’s quite fun and totally feels like a tube amp.

Rig like this: Loop out from the Axe to your tube power amp and follow that with an attenuator to reduce the signal back to line level. Stuff that back to the Loop in and process as desired.

The attenuator you use makes or breaks it. I use a Groove Tubes SE11 because it offers infinite control over input and output levels - a must for this. Also has a superb EQ section that follows passive attenuation so it need not be turned on to protect downstream devices. No worries about jamming 100 watts into the Axe!

Of the power amps tried, I like the 2-50-2 best for this as it offers the most flexibility. The main outputs of the Axe feed clean SS amps which can drive either guitar cabs or FRFR - your choice. If your nuts like me do both. Shades of early EVH actually. From a recording standpoint the options are huge.

Perhaps the biggest asset is the feel of real tube compression, which is adjustable depending on how hard you drive the power amp. Also cool is the tone itself doesn't change with volume (other than Fletcher-Munson) when using FRFR cabs.
 
joegold really summarizes this topic well , the Axe Fx does it's job very well in
whatever capacity you aim for it to fulfill considering what ultimately you want
out of it . There are many ways to use it and to think that one way is the best for all scenarios is just cheating yourself out of what could be better . A tube amp is a tube amp
and a SS amp is just that but even those are not created equal , what the Axe can bring
is convenience and convenience can save time with the end results being quite acceptable .
If you are just songwriting late at night and can't make alot of noise your tracks can easily
be keepers as long as your preset tones are dialed in . If you want to spend more time
experimenting with tubes and other gear in conjunction with the Axe Fx (if time allows)
your time can be VERY rewarding . If your playing out and the room and sound system at the
venue is above average then having a more detailed and organic tone (depth) will be appreciated by the audience as well as yourself . However if the room sucks and is too live
etc. it won't matter too much about all the idiosyncrasies and variables of your tone .
Personally I love going through the tube effects return of my VHT Super Thirty to an Weber
Alnico 1265 mounted in a custom ported 1x12 for studio use and the most enjoyment while
Jamming at home , but I love the challenge and fun of trying to make the Axe Fx sound
killer as my hybrid setup using the Axe Fx in direct feed only mode , the major plus being
it can get really close but with an infinite amount of other tones . That is why I bought it
and that is what it does for me , lately I have been trying a tube direct box straight into
the rear input instead of the front panel input and have found my method of choice
while in the studio with the Axe Fx . I feel that Cliff has done an amazing job with this box
overall and alone it stands tall and proud , but when you add other high end inputs and outputs to it be it tube or SS it can only get better if used properly an under the right conditions , if you want a certain kind of clean or a certain kind of organic grind then the Axe
is there to help you get there as subjective as you want to be or lets you just jam ,the Axe
has you covered for a plethora of great tones .
 
I'm going to also try a tube power amp. I just got the SAL 2 and the top end sounds funny to me. I get a nice big sound, but when you put a mic in front of it, I can tell that something is missing. The sizzle sounds a bit fake. I posted a bunch of times about a B&K power amp I have and it sounds more natural. The B&K is a mosfet amp and it sounds the closest to tubes. When I put a mic on my cabs to record, I don't have to eq. So I'm going to try a tube power amp to see if I can see a difference. I try recording direct but I'm not pleased. I read in the forum about loading IR's into the Axe Fx, but haven't had a chance to yet.
 
Just returned a Rocktron Velocity 300 that I had just bought for my Axe Fx. Was all pumped to go all SS, but my 50 watt (per side) tube power amp totally destroyed it. Funny thihg is, the Rocktron was a heavy piece, and only a couple of pounds lighter than my tube amp. The tube amp also sounded more "transparent" and to me, the opposite of what most have stated (that tube amps color the tone).
 
Torcher said:
... the Axe Fx does it's job very well in
whatever capacity you aim for it to fulfill considering what ultimately you want
out of it ...
Click to expand...
I don't question that the AxeFx is a great tool. But some people state that the AxeFx does everyhing what a tube amp does and that even better. I find that there are still audible differences what tube power amps can add to the AxeFx-Sound and I didn't find a way yet to achieve this without those old fashioned bulbs – while I don’t consider myself as cork-sniffer.
I would enjoy getting happy with a SLA-2 or a compact FRFR solution but I still have to carry around some heavier stuff to get the sound I like.
 
Tricki said:
I don't question that the AxeFx is a great tool. But some people state that the AxeFx does everyhing what a tube amp does and that even better. I find that there are still audible differences what tube power amps can add to the AxeFx-Sound and I didn't find a way yet to achieve this without those old fashioned bulbs – while I don’t consider myself as cork-sniffer.
I would enjoy getting happy with a SLA-2 or a compact FRFR solution but I still have to carry around some heavier stuff to get the sound I like.
Click to expand...
Ditto.
 
widrace said:
There is another way to use a tube power amp with the Axe that hasn't been discussed here and has a lot to offer in regards to overall feel and sound - if done correctly. The results are hard to describe, but basically it's hybrid sound that bridges the gap between FRFR and tube power amp/cab. It's a very bubbly feel and tone that’s quite fun and totally feels like a tube amp.

Rig like this: Loop out from the Axe to your tube power amp and follow that with an attenuator to reduce the signal back to line level. Stuff that back to the Loop in and process as desired.

The attenuator you use makes or breaks it. I use a Groove Tubes SE11 because it offers infinite control over input and output levels - a must for this. Also has a superb EQ section that follows passive attenuation so it need not be turned on to protect downstream devices. No worries about jamming 100 watts into the Axe!

Of the power amps tried, I like the 2-50-2 best for this as it offers the most flexibility. The main outputs of the Axe feed clean SS amps which can drive either guitar cabs or FRFR - your choice. If your nuts like me do both. Shades of early EVH actually. From a recording standpoint the options are huge.

Perhaps the biggest asset is the feel of real tube compression, which is adjustable depending on how hard you drive the power amp. Also cool is the tone itself doesn't change with volume (other than Fletcher-Munson) when using FRFR cabs.
Click to expand...

Do you still use this way with the Axe ? It's a very interesting tip I think.
 
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