Things to consider

[GuyJames]

We are all primarily dialing in our tones on studio monitors, sometimes through headphones and at best imo through our live rigs at stage volume but… this is all telling to the point that the environment we set things reflects that space in mind and doesn’t always work in every setting.

Last night I played a huge outdoor stage that was made of aluminum, no back drop or overhang… I used my trusty ev12pxm’s but the tone was just terrible I felt and really distracted me from just enjoying the moment of playing to 5000 people.

Without an extensive soundcheck I don’t know if there’s really a way to get pleasing results on stage like that where the sound just disappeares in the open air. The stage material definitely makes a difference.

I just kind of Had to “embrace the suck” as we Say in the Air Force. Lol

 

[Dave Merrill]

We are all primarily dialing in our tones on studio monitors, sometimes through headphones and at best imo through our live rigs at stage volume but… this is all telling to the point that the environment we set things reflects that space in mind and doesn’t always work in every setting.

Last night I played a huge outdoor stage that was made of aluminum, no back drop or overhang… I used my trusty ev12pxm’s but the tone was just terrible I felt and really distracted me from just enjoying the moment of playing to 5000 people.

Without an extensive soundcheck I don’t know if there’s really a way to get pleasing results on stage like that where the sound just disappeares in the open air. The stage material definitely makes a difference.

I just kind of Had to “embrace the suck” as we Say in the Air Force. Lol

It's been a long time, but yeah, there's no bounceback, and nothing contains the sounds, it just goes out and you get nothing back. Everything sounds really small.

Seems like IEMs would be the only real cure. Or maybe massive monitoring.

 

[GuyJames]

It's been a long time, but yeah, there's no bounceback, and nothing contains the sounds, it just goes out and you get nothing back. Everything sounds really small.

Seems like IEMs would be the only real cure. Or maybe massive monitoring.

I personally loathe IEM’s but for that scenario it may have been the lesser of two evils.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

A stage like that is causing the sound to be sucked up by the universe, but we're used to having some sort of sound bouncing around and back to the stage.

You don't say where your EVs were positioned, but I'd want them in front of me firing at my head rather than behind me acting like a backline. Otherwise, as Dave ^said^ IEMs or massive monitoring would help.

 

[GuyJames]

A stage like that is causing the sound to be sucked up by the universe, but we're used to having some sort of sound bouncing around and back to the stage.

You don't say where your EVs were positioned, but I'd want them in front of me firing at my head rather than behind me acting like a backline. Otherwise, as Dave ^said^ IEMs or massive monitoring would help.

I prefer the EV’s behind me like back line, just feels right and I can crank them louder than I would if they were facing me.

right about the universe sucking the tone… that stage was a black hole.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I prefer the EV’s behind me like back line, just feels right and I can crank them louder than I would if they were facing me.

I understand that feeling, and usually have mine behind me, but on a big stage there could be some distance between the backline and the mic positions or the front of the stage. In front of us they might have to throw the sound ~5 feet. Behind us it could be over 10 feet which eats up a lot of volume. Either way it's not fun when it's hard to hear.

Plus the fanz dig it when we stand on our monitors in front of them.

 

[elvis]

May also help to use the performance controls. The danger is that they would also affect FOH, which wouldn't probably be helpful. I love IEMs for a big stage.

 

[Dave Merrill]

This conversation reminds me of a thread a while back about reverb live, which maybe has a different angle.

Back in the day the bigger places i played were gyms, field houses, and biggish clubs, maybe 2500 capacity. In those places i wished for negative reverb, less than there was in the room that you couldn't get rid of, made it hard to hear anything at all.

I mentioned that in a thread here about reverb, figuring that the bigger the act the bigger the venues, so they'd have the same concerns. @Cooper Carter chimed in that national acts playing stadiums have the opposite problem, the one you hit, with there not being any natural reverb in open air.

So, when they add reverb, they add a lot, to make up for that universe sucking the sound away thing. That might be another possible strategy if this comes up again. That also relates to IEMs, because of course the only ambience in there is what you add.

 

[SJB]

+10000000 on IEMs - solved major stage variance issues for me. I resisted them, because I didn’t think I would like them, or they would somehow degrade my experience on stage - I found the opposite, once I gave them a chance. Now my rig sounds pretty much the same no matter where we are - and I keep my live stage monitoring (in front or in back, doesn’t matter) for natural feedback. AND…. This is why I never dial reverb into any preset to be used in live performance. Once it’s there, you can’t take it out. Delay is less noisy and works pretty well in any setting. If reverb is necessary - the mix engineer should have control.

 

[Cooper Carter]

We are all primarily dialing in our tones on studio monitors, sometimes through headphones and at best imo through our live rigs at stage volume but… this is all telling to the point that the environment we set things reflects that space in mind and doesn’t always work in every setting.

Last night I played a huge outdoor stage that was made of aluminum, no back drop or overhang… I used my trusty ev12pxm’s but the tone was just terrible I felt and really distracted me from just enjoying the moment of playing to 5000 people.

Without an extensive soundcheck I don’t know if there’s really a way to get pleasing results on stage like that where the sound just disappeares in the open air. The stage material definitely makes a difference.

I just kind of Had to “embrace the suck” as we Say in the Air Force. Lol

It can be such a vibe killer, no doubt. Curious to know: were you on ears or doing it au naturel? A great ear mix can go a long way toward ameliorating this kind of distraction from the fun, as others have said.

 

[Cooper Carter]

This conversation reminds me of a thread a while back about reverb live, which maybe has a different angle.

Back in the day the bigger places i played were gyms, field houses, and biggish clubs, maybe 2500 capacity. In those places i wished for negative reverb, less than there was in the room that you couldn't get rid of, made it hard to hear anything at all.

I mentioned that in a thread here about reverb, figuring that the bigger the act the bigger the venues, so they'd have the same concerns. @Cooper Carter chimed in that national acts playing stadiums have the opposite problem, the one you hit, with there not being any natural reverb in open air.

So, when they add reverb, they add a lot, to make up for that universe sucking the sound away thing. That might be another possible strategy if this comes up again. That also relates to IEMs, because of course the only ambience in there is what you add.

100%. FOH engineers in stadiums do their absolute best to mix for everyone at the show -- good system techs/AEs will make the walk up to the 300 level nosebleeds several times over the course of a soundcheck/production rehearsal while FOH dials it in to give it the best they can. But the reality is, they're balancing the fact that those sections are reverb tanks and the field/floor can be closer to the "universe sucking" environment. At the end of the day, they're obviously prioritizing the cleaner (and closer) of the two.

It makes for a good photo, but this is no one's idea of an ideal listening environment. It's just the only option we have in the US for acts of this size. Europe/Asia have far more flat, outdoor performance spaces without walls.

 

[Cooper Carter]

May also help to use the performance controls. The danger is that they would also affect FOH, which wouldn't probably be helpful. I love IEMs for a big stage.

Output 1: FOH
Output 2: Stage FRFR/Ears
Performance controls only for OUT 2 send.
Problem solved - best of both worlds.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

This conversation reminds me of a thread a while back about reverb live, which maybe has a different angle.

Back in the day the bigger places i played were gyms, field houses, and biggish clubs, maybe 2500 capacity. In those places i wished for negative reverb, less than there was in the room that you couldn't get rid of, made it hard to hear anything at all.

I sang at a karaoke in a Scottsdale bar once that was like that. The place was all glass and mirrors....

I mentioned that in a thread here about reverb, figuring that the bigger the act the bigger the venues, so they'd have the same concerns. @Cooper Carter chimed in that national acts playing stadiums have the opposite problem, the one you hit, with there not being any natural reverb in open air.

So, when they add reverb, they add a lot, to make up for that universe sucking the sound away thing. That might be another possible strategy if this comes up again. That also relates to IEMs, because of course the only ambience in there is what you add.

It might not need a ton of the wash of reverb, but just some early reflections to give the sound some sense of space. I regularly use a reverb block with the early reflections dialed high and the reverb tail diminished. It gives a sense of space without burying the sound in the reverb tail. It still sounds "dry", but has size....

 

[Greg Ferguson]

It might not need a ton of the wash of reverb, but just some early reflections to give the sound some sense of space. I regularly use a reverb block with the early reflections dialed high and the reverb tail diminished. It gives a sense of space without burying the sound in the reverb tail. It still sounds "dry", but has size....

I like that idea.

 

[skolacki]

100%. FOH engineers in stadiums do their absolute best to mix for everyone at the show -- good system techs/AEs will make the walk up to the 300 level nosebleeds several times over the course of a soundcheck/production rehearsal while FOH dials it in to give it the best they can. But the reality is, they're balancing the fact that those sections are reverb tanks and the field/floor can be closer to the "universe sucking" environment. At the end of the day, they're obviously prioritizing the cleaner (and closer) of the two.

It makes for a good photo, but this is no one's idea of an ideal listening environment. It's just the only option we have in the US for acts of this size. Europe/Asia have far more flat, outdoor performance spaces without walls.

Stadiums are bad if you’re under the decks. I saw Dead and Co at the Dodgers stadium and was under the lower deck. It was so bad that I couldn’t even tell what song they were playing. Moved up to the nosebleed seats and sounded a lot better. The sound guys have to know about that but nothing they can do about it.

 

[nonchai]

In connection to all this - here’s a feature suggestion - For any preset - also globally - add more than one optional “FINAL EQ” section - each one applicable to the different kinds of venue or speaker use case one might want to use the modeller.

For example

A - Home Studio: EQ for when using ones studio monitors at home

B - Home Cab: EQ for when going through one’s powered FRFR cab or even a guitar cab - perhaps using an actual amp set to clean

C - Venue Full: EQ for a venue where there is little reverberation or boom because audience or good damped acoustics prevent it

D - Venue Empty/Wet/Boomy: EQ for those venues with terrible boomy acoustics...

E - In-ears : ya ge the idea!

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Here is a preset with my usual early reflections parallel reverb block. Channels A, B, C, and D have incrementally higher mixes (via varying the output level). I like the Large Wooden Room, but sometimes use Recording Studio C or Recording Studio A.

The important bit is to jack around the Early Level and Late Level values. Usually trading settings for the two works pretty well as a starting point.

I drop the input gain for lead sounds, to make the leads a bit drier. It kinda simulates the big band era soloist standing up and stepping forward closer to the one mic in front of the band....

 

[GuyJames]

Here is a preset with my usual early reflections parallel reverb block. Channels A, B, C, and D have incrementally higher mixes (via varying the output level). I like the Large Wooden Room, but sometimes use Recording Studio C or Recording Studio A.

The important bit is to jack around the Early Level and Late Level values. Usually trading settings for the two works pretty well as a starting point.

I drop the input gain for lead sounds, to make the leads a bit drier. It kinda simulates the big band era soloist standing up and stepping forward closer to the one mic in front of the band....

Interesting signal chain!

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Interesting signal chain!

Tanx. Gets a lot of things done, with the help of 8347 buttons and 5 continuous controllers....

 

[GuyJames]

It can be such a vibe killer, no doubt. Curious to know: were you on ears or doing it au naturel? A great ear mix can go a long way toward ameliorating this kind of distraction from the fun, as others have said.

I had IEM’s but I only wear them for one song where I have to start a song from a click. I just don’t connect with the IEM experience but I see how they are beneficial in the situation i experienced.