Tech 21 Power Engine Users (Unite!)

SRVYJM

SRVYJM

Member
So, just picked up a good used Tech 21 Power Engine from my local GC for $250- seemed like a great price to try this thing out. I have a XiTone at home and wanted to side-by-side them. Honestly, I think I like the Power Engine better at this point- it sounds exactly like my home settings with very little tweaking (the XiTone- although GREAT- turns out to be really bass heavy in a live setting, and still pretty hi-fi sounding- not as organic as the Power Engine seems to be).

So, just looking for some insight into using this- I might by another one to run stereo- but wondering, are the rest of you that use this still keeping the cab block on or using it as a "cab" itself and turning off the IR's for cabinet emulation? Also- do you run them with the I/O Out 1 at -10DB or the +4 setting? How loud does it get in a live setting and are you using it as a primary sound source for the audience or as a stage monitor for yourself? Most of my gigs are in very small clubs and the PA's are questionable (as I've posted before) so having very reliable sound in a traditional sense is pretty awesome for me. Just looking for more insight into using this wonderful find. I've also found I seem to like it without the "mod" of the tweeter speaker so far that I've seen on this forum. Do you all that use the Power Engine use it with or without the mod- and what's been your experience? Day one for me here- so just looking to get up and running with it quickly. Will probably take it to rehearsals tonight and then a gig afterwards.
 
I still have mine for a backup, but haven't used it in a long time. It sounds pretty good, but understand that it's not FR. I only played a couple gigs w/ it before getting an Atomic. One was a small show on the deck at a ski resort, the other was a large festival where I was able to send a line out and run thru the PA (which is how I generally run it w/ the Atomic too). In both cases the PE had plenty of volume for me. This band was a jazzy-jam thing... if you're playing hard rock or metal it may not have the juice you need by itself.
 
SRVYJM said:
So, just picked up a good used Tech 21 Power Engine from my local GC for $250- seemed like a great price to try this thing out. I have a XiTone at home and wanted to side-by-side them. Honestly, I think I like the Power Engine better at this point- it sounds exactly like my home settings with very little tweaking (the XiTone- although GREAT- turns out to be really bass heavy in a live setting, and still pretty hi-fi sounding- not as organic as the Power Engine seems to be).
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If the Xitone sounds different at gig then at home then you are most likely not creating presets at gig volumes. That is the fault of the user, not the equipment :)

Gig levels with too much bass or treble are usually the effect of Fletcher Munson.
 
unix-guy said:
If the Xitone sounds different at gig then at home then you are most likely not creating presets at gig volumes. That is the fault of the user, not the equipment :)

Gig levels with too much bass or treble are usually the effect of Fletcher Munson.
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True- I haven't had the XiTone at gig volume yet- it was "too bass heavy" very boomy- at home. I'll take it to rehearsals tonight to A/B it with the Power Engine- both in conjunction with the excellent PA at the studio. The problem is that's a really good PA, gig's usually not so much- so I rely heavily on the gear I bring to the gig- but that doesn't really answer my question, the question was about the Power Engine itself and how people that are using it implement it- not about whether or not the XiTone was a problem. So- to actual Power Engine users then...
 
SRVYJM said:
True- I haven't had the XiTone at gig volume yet- it was "too bass heavy" very boomy- at home. I'll take it to rehearsals tonight to A/B it with the Power Engine- both in conjunction with the excellent PA at the studio. The problem is that's a really good PA, gig's usually not so much- so I rely heavily on the gear I bring to the gig- but that doesn't really answer my question, the question was about the Power Engine itself and how people that are using it implement it- not about whether or not the XiTone was a problem. So- to actual Power Engine users then...
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Fair enough... Didn't want to derail your thread, just offering some advice. I own 3 Xitone wedges and they are pretty flat. They put out what you put in ;)
 
Unix-guy: So in the line of derailment- No problem! What "amp" do you have in your XiTone? I have his new one- with the new amp- not the Matrix- so that may be part of the problem I'm seeing. When I first started using it I LOVED it, because it sounded exactly like my home monitoring system- but when I turn it up- all is lost. Definitely something I have to look into- dial it in at gig volumes in rehearsals, then dial it back at home. Maybe even two different patches for each- I can't believe how good the AX8 sounds at home- I get all the dynamics and fantastic overdriven tone I love- at very reasonable volumes- but when I take it out- suddenly all that lushness and thick singing tone has "artifacts" that I associate with a hifi system. I'm pretty sure it's mostly high-end filters I have to dial in (or out as the case may be). I may very well end up liking the XiTone more in the long run too. I already ordered another one from him the same day I received my first one- then the excitement wore off! But still- they do sound great and I accidentally received the amp cab style monitors which I ended up liking instead of the wedge. Looks more "amp like" at a gig- not that that really matters, all that truly counts is how it sounds- The new XiTone amp has a mic level and line level switch on both inputs, as well as 5 or 6 "modes" for the EQ (I guess). I tend to just keep it in the default mode- but maybe I'll play around with that tonight too. It most likely just needs more full volume time spent dialing it in, that I agree with entirely!
 
Unix-Guy- I may send you some questions on dialing in the XiTones as a separate thread (to share with others) both for live use and then translated to at-home (very quiet) use.
 
I've got passive wedges...powered by a Matrix GT800FX.

I recently organized a Fractal event in Northern California and we did some side by side comparison of FRFR cabs, including active and passive Xitones. There was one DSP setting on the actives that was almost identical to the passive ones.

I think those were also Matrix, though, not the new ones.
 
SRVYJM said:
Unix-Guy- I may send you some questions on dialing in the XiTones as a separate thread (to share with others) both for live use and then translated to at-home (very quiet) use.
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I don't play all that quiet at home :)

And live these days I'm almost always using IEMs... Which sound nowhere near as nice!
 
Yeah, taking the XiTone out tonight to dial it in at gig volumes both at rehearsal and a gig... then I'll do the same next week with the new Power Engine and see which I like better and which one sounds better to the audience. I'll post results!
 
SRVYJM said:
Yeah, taking the XiTone out tonight to dial it in at gig volumes both at rehearsal and a gig... then I'll do the same next week with the new Power Engine and see which I like better and which one sounds better to the audience. I'll post results!
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Curious to hear your results. I have a Tech 21 TM60 which I used for years and occasionally gigged it with with modelers into the return. Liked it so much, I bought a PE60 as it was even lighter and I thought I might be able to use both in a stereo config but the PE 60 sounded nothing like my TM60. My TM60 sounds full with lot's of low end and a slight roll off in the highs and keeps composure even when pushed to stage volumes. In comparison, the PE 60 sounded thin and didn't seem to be able to get as loud. Now the PE 60 was way, way more transparent and the TM60's analog speaker emulation happens post loop so you really couldn't use it with speaker cab's on, but it just sounded better to me. However, I have a suspicion that my PE60 wasn't working correctly.
 
Will Chen said:
Curious to hear your results. I have a Tech 21 TM60 which I used for years and occasionally gigged it with with modelers into the return. Liked it so much, I bought a PE60 as it was even lighter and I thought I might be able to use both in a stereo config but the PE 60 sounded nothing like my TM60. My TM60 sounds full with lot's of low end and a slight roll off in the highs and keeps composure even when pushed to stage volumes. In comparison, the PE 60 sounded thin and didn't seem to be able to get as loud. Now the PE 60 was way, way more transparent and the TM60's analog speaker emulation happens post loop so you really couldn't use it with speaker cab's on, but it just sounded better to me. However, I have a suspicion that my PE60 wasn't working correctly.
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I have a TM60 too- love that amp, honestly may be one of my favorite amps to gig with- it's light and gets really good tone. I'm only not using it regularly because I was lured into believing that real tube amps were somehow better... now I have way too many tube amps gathering dust because they're just to freakin' loud to play anywhere. Good vintage and modern ones- I need to get good enough to play bigger venues apparently! Also- I abandoned the TM60 because it "developed" -although I think it was there all the time but took me a while to notice- a very nasal tone in channel two. I couldn't' dial it out and it started to get on my nerves- but honestly in a band mix I'm not sure there is a better amp sometimes for smaller gigs.

So- XiTone review- eh? I don't know, jury is out right now- I played it last night at rehersals and at first (again) it was awesome- but I'm not sure it's really loud enough- I had to use the "mic" setting to get the volume to match the FOH PA I was running the unit through. I have to say- running through the FOH PA sounded EPIC with my Friedman BE selected- but I think I have to dial some properties out- like maybe the high cut filter or something. After a while of that I got somewhat "ear fatigued" because there seemed to always be a hi-end artifact present. I saw a post on here somewhere about dialing out that kind of thing so I have to try that- because it became un-inspiring after a while. At home volumes I'm not sure there is a better tone for me- at gig volumes- the hi-end seems to be far too pronounced. This is with the new XiTone amps- not the ones with the Matrix amp loaded- so that might have something to do with it. When I take my '59 Bassman to rehearsals with some pedals in front of it and a little delay (no reverb- might also have something to do with the artifacts I'm hearing, they are almost reverb-like) I never get ear fatigue. More A/Bin'g the rig at gig/rehearsal volumes is in order- it's just a LOT to carry around two full rigs to test. That's my review so far- next out is the PE60. I might see if there is a space available today- the studios are a lot cheaper to rent during the middle of the week day-time so I can probably get in if I get a free window today. I really want the AX8 and a great cabinet to be my full rig- but maybe I really do need to just get used to FOH and decent stage monitors to achieve a light weight grab and go rig. Or play in places that have a decent PA...
 
I will add this- playing the TE60 and XiTone side by side at home yesterday before rehearsals- fairly loud- there was almost no difference between the two units. Nearly identical tone and the TE60 surprised me with the flat response I could dial in. Again- not sure either will really get loud enough with a good drummer though. I was at rehearsals last night solo- so no bass or drums to see how they fit in the mix and didn't have any decent backing tracks with me to compare. More testing!
 
SRVYJM said:
I will add this- playing the TE60 and XiTone side by side at home yesterday before rehearsals- fairly loud- there was almost no difference between the two units. Nearly identical tone and the TE60 surprised me with the flat response I could dial in. Again- not sure either will really get loud enough with a good drummer though. I was at rehearsals last night solo- so no bass or drums to see how they fit in the mix and didn't have any decent backing tracks with me to compare. More testing!
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Interesting findings. I always felt the PE60 a bit bassy and mid-heavy (no doubt to "warm up" a digital tone) but your findings have me thinking. If it really is that close to the Xitone it could be a MUCH cheaper solution even though it really isn't FRFR.
 
I was on the original FAS wait list when I bought my Ultra, and now I use the AX8. Since day one, I use the PE60 exclusively. I think it's one of the best bangs for for buck out there. ( if you like 12 inch speakers and open back cabs). I find the PE60 plenty loud and very easy to travel with, as its light weight. I'm 53, and now I find I like my stage a quiet as possible, so I rarely use any "amp" and simply differ to stage monitors. But when I want a little more "guitar on stage", I still use the PE60 as a kind of extra guitar monitor, to hear myself a little better.
 
RKF said:
Interesting findings. I always felt the PE60 a bit bassy and mid-heavy (no doubt to "warm up" a digital tone) but your findings have me thinking. If it really is that close to the Xitone it could be a MUCH cheaper solution even though it really isn't FRFR.
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- Yeah, WAY more bang for the buck- picked mine up at GC for $259! AND it has the added benefit (to me) that it actually looks like a guitar amp/cabinet. I'm sure that doesn't matter to a lot of others- but I like it. I will say though that the XiTone was awesome but at gig volume I couldn't dial out the bass- and it's BOOMY! Now- I will go back and keep at it, I recognize it could all be my limited experience and time dialing in "guitar-amp-in-the-room" tones vs. FRFR FOH tones that maybe I'm just not used to because I don't play in clubs where they mic an amp- the amp in the room IS the sound- and your sound guy is you- and your volume on the guitar/amp mixed on the fly! I know- not the best situation- but that's where I play- at jams around town- and that's the environment. I suspect you're right, they're probably intentionally trying to "warm up" a digital signal- but that works for me- however I should point out that the XiTone was WAY more bass heavy/ bassy then the PE60- and I could dial up the bass on the PE60 to match the XiTone- but because it has an on-board EQ- I could dial it out too. I found it sounded nearly perfect with all three dials (B-M-T) at noon straight up.

I'll try to get some stuff recorded this weekend and post samples of both cabinets- I need to learn to record better videos anyway, gives me a good excuse to get it done !

richb said:
I was on the original FAS wait list when I bought my Ultra, and now I use the AX8. Since day one, I use the PE60 exclusively. I think it's one of the best bangs for for buck out there. ( if you like 12 inch speakers and open back cabs). I find the PE60 plenty loud and very easy to travel with, as its light weight. I'm 53, and now I find I like my stage a quiet as possible, so I rarely use any "amp" and simply differ to stage monitors. But when I want a little more "guitar on stage", I still use the PE60 as a kind of extra guitar monitor, to hear myself a little better.
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Yep, I'm thinking price wise there is no better solution out there right now. Do you have the mod on yours with the tweeter added that's been mentioned here to make it more FRFR or is is just stock? I might try the mod- but the truth is they really do sound great as-is, and
 
You REALLY need to read about Fletcher Munson effect... You are describing its results well... Too much highs/lows at higher volumes.

Our ears hear midrange frequencies much better at low volumes. Therefore, you will compensate for that by increasing bass and treble in relationship to mids when adjusting things at lower volumes.

Then, when you turn it up, you have a tone that you don't like.
 
unix-guy said:
You REALLY need to read about Fletcher Munson effect... You are describing its results well... Too much highs/lows at higher volumes.

Our ears hear midrange frequencies much better at low volumes. Therefore, you will compensate for that by increasing bass and treble in relationship to mids when adjusting things at lower volumes.

Then, when you turn it up, you have a tone that you don't like.
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- Yeah, I am familiar with Fletch Munson effect- although to be honest I thought it was that everything sounded great at high volume- but thin and ratty at a lower volume- kind of the opposite of what you're saying here. So, if I love my "at home-low volume" tone- then to dial THAT sound up, I do the opposite- dial UP midrange and dial back the treble and bass as I increase volume.

Also, FWIW, I think it might also be the effect of reverb and delay that I'm hearing (more reverb) in my mix when it's louder. In a small room at low volume it makes everything sound bigger, more epic and arena-like, but in a real room at higher volumes it's just noisy artifacts- let the room be the reverb maybe and dial the delay mix out- like I said originally, I need to spend more time with it at high volume at my rehearsal space and tweak it appropriately. Thanks for the tip/insight though- that gives me a great place to start!
 
SRVYJM said:
- Yeah, I am familiar with Fletch Munson effect- although to be honest I thought it was that everything sounded great at high volume- but thin and ratty at a lower volume- kind of the opposite of what you're saying here. So, if I love my "at home-low volume" tone- then to dial THAT sound up, I do the opposite- dial UP midrange and dial back the treble and bass as I increase volume.

Also, FWIW, I think it might also be the effect of reverb and delay that I'm hearing (more reverb) in my mix when it's louder. In a small room at low volume it makes everything sound bigger, more epic and arena-like, but in a real room at higher volumes it's just noisy artifacts- let the room be the reverb maybe and dial the delay mix out- like I said originally, I need to spend more time with it at high volume at my rehearsal space and tweak it appropriately. Thanks for the tip/insight though- that gives me a great place to start!
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It works both ways. If you dial in a good tone at higher volumes and then play it quietly, it will sound very midrange-y.

You are also probably right about your reverb/delay. I use little to no reverb when playing with the band. It's tends to cause the guitar to be buried in the overall mix.

I also find that I have to be careful about the drive level. I will usually dial in more gain than needed if the volume is low.
 
Yep, all great points I need to dial in. I'm trying to reserve space to give this all a try tomorrow- hopefully some video too for A/B comparisons.
 
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