Talk me out of getting back into amps

Sooo all the people using the axe with a neutral power amp and a cab, they doesn’t have the sound of the real heads if all the heads need a special power amp working with their preamp section .

I don’t use the axe this way, I always use ir, but I am curious about that as I have a stack and think sometimes : but why I didn’t use the axe with a power amp and my cab when I miss the amp in the room ? Because everytime I try with my tube head as a power amp I am not convinced. The sound isn’t bad, but it doesn’t sound like a Marshall head in my cab or this or that

Maybe the axe isn’t really designed to be used like that at first, that is an « option » but maybe no one said that with the axe + power amp + cab, is like having 300 virtual heads for your cab , and that the head are accurate in this case . Don’t know. That is interesting.

So there are different parts of a modeled tube amp rig that need to be enabled or disabled depending on what you're doing.

If you're using a neutral solid state poweramp and real cab, you'll want to enable poweramp modeling in the Axe-Fx and set the poweramp modeling mode to "SS amp and cab." That will let you use the Axe-Fx's built-in Presence and Depth modeling, along with tube power section modeling, to sound like the real amp. But the "SS amp and cab" setting will disable speaker compression and drive modeling so you don't double up on that when you use a real cab.

If you use the Axe-Fx's amp block straight into an IR and out to the board, then you'll want to select the FRFR setting in the poweramp modeling to turn on all the modeling, including simulated speaker compression.

If you want to use the Axe-Fx only as a preamp into a tube power section, you'll want to turn off poweramp modeling, but from there you will be limited to however your real poweramp behaves. So like if you want your rig to sound like a Dual Recto but your real power section is a 20 watt EL34 poweramp with a lot of hardwired negative feedback, you're only going to be able to get the Dual Recto's preamp right, etc.
 
Also here, when I plug my axe fx in the return of the jp2c,
to use the head like a power amp (with a 2x12 rectifier cab)

most of the heads of the axe fx sound sort of muffled and dark.

I turn power amp modelling off, no cabs, even if I change to "ss power amp + cab" in the speaker part of the amp, it doesnt change nothing.

If I choose for example a rectifier orange modern, I need to crank the presence and treble all the way up to be in the ball park of the real head

dont know why. because I go to the return of the head ? I know that is not a ss poweramp but hm.

I am curious to listen to a rectifier from the axe fx with a power amp and a cab by someone else. if you have all the bees and high the real head have. If someone can do that, even with a phone . with the treble knob at 5/6

Here is in the room iphone clip with IIC++ model with 6600hz slider at +1,5db only.

anything more and it would tear your head off.

 
Here is in the room iphone clip with IIC++ model with 6600hz slider at +1,5db only.

anything more and it would tear your head off.


Which power amp do you use?
Have you tried a a/b with a real head versus axe modeling+ power amp ?

Still don’t know if the problem is that I try it with the power section of my jp2c, or if the amps I am looking for need a specific power amp to sound like the real ones
 
Which power amp do you use?
Have you tried a a/b with a real head versus axe modeling+ power amp ?

Still don’t know if the problem is that I try it with the power section of my jp2c, or if the amps I am looking for need a specific power amp to sound like the real ones
fryette power station. I have presence all the way down on real power amp, modeling enabled and presence on c++ at 10% (1 on a dial). if I turn power amp modelling off, it’s so bright it’s simply too much. so much hi end anyway.. 😄
 
fryette power station. I have presence all the way down on real power amp, modeling enabled and presence on c++ at 10% (1 on a dial). if I turn power amp modelling off, it’s so bright it’s simply too much. so much hi end anyway.. 😄
Well , so everytime it is weird .
It seems that The product that replace all the preamps/heads in the market when used with a power amp and cab is not there yet . I mean something that work « normally » .
 
Well , so everytime it is weird .
It seems that The product that replace all the preamps/heads in the market when used with a power amp and cab is not there yet . I mean something that work « normally » .
you have to find a way in order to work it out for you.
I spent countless hours researching what to do, in order to get the sound I hear in my head from the fractal.
there is so much stuff baked inside this fractal...
...it´s all there, but is it easy to find it ? sometimes yes, but many times NO.
 
you have to find a way in order to work it out for you.
I spent countless hours researching what to do, in order to get the sound I hear in my head from the fractal.
there is so much stuff baked inside this fractal...
...it´s all there, but is it easy to find it ? sometimes yes, but many times NO.
If you don’t know the original, you are not sure to have his tone. So that story is not ok yet. Normally you just choose « Marshall jubilee », plug in to the power amp and cab and go. But maybe we will have a product like that in the future.
 
If you don’t know the original, you are not sure to have his tone. So that story is not ok yet. Normally you just choose « Marshall jubilee », plug in to the power amp and cab and go. But maybe we will have a product like that in the future.
yes, I did tone matching, A/Bing and all that stuff for quite some time, but in reality I don´t need fractal to match it 100%.
I just go for the sound I hear in my head.. if I want 100% original sound, I´ll use real amp.. I´m 100% Ok with this in both cases.
 
i’ll leave this here if you’re wondering why your amp doesn’t sound the same as the “equivalent” modelled amp in the fractal

The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference amp either.

Why?

1. Component accuracy and drift.
The components used in tube amps are low-cost, consumer-grade parts. They typically have tolerances of 10% or more. Over time the value of these components drifts. If your amp is old chances are it doesn't sound like it did when it was new. All our old reference amps are given a thorough checkup prior to modeling with any out-of-tolerance parts replaced.​

2. Potentiometer tolerance.
A typical consumer potentiometer has a tolerance of up to +/- 20%. That's huge and that's end-to-end accuracy. On top of that the midpoint accuracy can be another +/- 20%. So if you have a 1M pot it could be as low as 800K. If it's linear it's midpoint should be 400K but could be as low as 360K. Now your 1M pot that should be 500K at halfway is only 360K. That's an error of 28%!​

3. Potentiometer taper.
A big one. Potentiometers come in a variety of tapers: linear, 30A, 20A, 10A, etc. The taper on an audio taper pot (i.e. 30A) denotes the value of the pot at mid rotation. For example a 1M, 10A pot would be 10% of its value at "noon", or 100K.​
Manufacturers are constantly changing the taper of the pots in their amps. Sometimes the designer changes the taper as customers are reticent to turn knobs much away from noon. It's a weird psychological thing. Sometimes the manufacturer changes the taper due to availability concerns. Sometimes they change the taper when moving manufacturing locations. Sometimes they change the taper for no apparent reason at all.​
Another factor is that almost all amps don't use true log taper pots. They use "commercial log" taper which is a crude approximation to a log taper. This is because true log taper pots are expensive. Fractal Audio products use true log taper. This means that '7' on your amp is not exactly '7' on the model even if the pot in your amp is exactly 1M and its taper is exactly 10A. Why do we do it this way? Because the response is smoother and if true log pots were the same price as consumer log pots everyone would use true log taper.​
We model all amps assuming the pots are ideal. We assume the end-to-end resistance is exactly, say, 1M and the midpoint is, say, exactly 100K. We DO NOT use the values measured in our reference amp because no two amps are the same so we use the DESIGNERS INTENDED VALUE.​
What all this means is '3' on your amp is not necessarily the same as '3' on the Axe-Fx.​
Example: the Master Volume pot in a 5150 is a 1M, 15A audio taper pot. Theoretically it should be 150K at noon. On our reference amp it's about 15% low. If the reference amp's MV is set to '3' we have to set the model to around '2.5' to match. This is unsurprising due to the tolerance of the reference amp's pot.​
4. Indicator accuracy.
On many amps if you set a knob to noon it's not actually halfway in the pot's rotation. Why? Several reasons. Some amps are just weird. For example the Bogner Shiva's minimum rotation is around 6:00 and the maximum is around 4:00. So noon is actually past midpoint. Same with Soldanos. In other cases the knobs aren't oriented perfectly on the shaft. If it's a knurled shaft the knob may be off one tooth. If it's a smooth shaft then you're at the mercy of the human who put the knob on the shaft and tightened the set screw. This is why I prefer D-shafts. Finally the pot itself may be rotated relative to the panel.​
You can try this yourself. Turn the knob on your amp fully CCW. Note the position of the indicator. Now rotate fully CW. Note the marker position. If it's an old amp it's probably not symmetrical.​
Then there's the whole marking thing. Fender's are numbered 1-10. Soldanos go to 11. We use 0-10 so be wary of the amp's numbering.​

5. Power Tube Bias.
Another big one. The transconductance (gain) of a power tube can vary greatly. This is why power tubes are color coded, sold in matched sets, etc.​
Amps come in two flavors: fixed bias and cathode bias. Fixed bias amps apply a "fixed" voltage to the grid of the power tubes. Cathode bias amps use a resistor between the cathode and ground to self bias the tube.​
Most, but not all, fixed bias amps allow the user to adjust the bias point of the amp. This allows the bias point to be set to an optimum value for the particular set of tubes installed (since the transconductance can vary greatly). Some fixed bias amps do not allow adjustment. Examples are Mesa/Boogies, 5150s, and several other brands/types. The drawback of this is that the bias can vary greatly depending upon the gain of the tubes installed. Due to this the manufacturers err on the safe side and the bias is usually much colder than the ideal value.​
Most cathode biased amps are not adjustable. Again you are at the mercy of the tube's gain but these amps tend to be biased hot to begin with and have higher transformer matching which prevents excursion outside of the S.O.A. (safe operating area).​
If the bias is adjustable where the manufacturer decides to bias their tubes is a matter of preference. Most manufacturers bias their tubes on the cold side to prevent premature failure and reduce warranty claims. Especially the larger manufacturers.​
This leads to the question of "what is the ideal bias point?" The pervasive school of thought is you adjust the bias so the idle dissipation is 60-70% of the tube's peak power rating. This is a safe approach and ensures that the tubes don't "red plate" and live fairly long and prosperous lives.​
My opinion is that the ideal bias point is NOT a function of the tube's power rating. It's the point at which the power amp's transfer function is most linear. Unfortunately operating the tubes at that point can result in exceeding the tube's S.O.A. So the optimum bias point depends on the tube's power rating, the transformer primary impedance (matching) and the user's tolerance to tube replacement frequency.​
For example, if we bias an EL34 based power amp at 60% peak dissipation it's actually running fairly cold. If we know that the transformer is slightly overmatched we can bias the tubes hotter, 70% or even more. This will result in a warmer tone but the tubes will wear faster.​
What does all this mean? Well, I bias the virtual tubes on the warm side. EL34s are biased at around 70% because we don't have to worry about them wearing out. 6L6s are biased a little colder, around 60% but this is actually as "warm" as the EL34s because of the higher plate dissipation of a 6L6.​
In practice this means that the models in the Axe-Fx will biased warmer than a new amp straight out of the box as most amps are biased cold (too cold IMO). After you wear the tubes out and bring it to a tech the tech will replace those tubes and bias them hotter than factory. So if you're comparing your new, out-of-the box 5150 with the Axe-Fx model the amp will probably sound "colder". Some people like this, many do not. If you like a colder sounding power amp it's just a knob twist away.​
 
i’ll leave this here if you’re wondering why your amp doesn’t sound the same as the “equivalent” modelled amp in the fractal
Yes I already know this but that is not the question.
Many people sold their head to use the amp sim with power amp and cab but finally they don’t have the original tone . With this method, with the example of a rectifier, the tone you have sound nothing like a rectifier, and that’s not a knob value thing…
I d like to do the test with a basic power amp. Maybe one day .
But when I owned the power head from kemper it was the same,
You can desactivate the power amp part but the preamp sound nothing like the real head . You have a useable tone yes, but not accurate. Where the tone of a miced amp is really close to the real deal these days, the « head simulation » is not there yet, for amp in the room use.
 
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Imo digital power amp modelling makes sense left ON with hi-headroom low coloration tube power amps like Fryette power station, LXII, Synergy 5050 ... since those are not designed to reproduce the wide range of cranked power amp characters and compression flavours inherent in many digital models set to push their virtual power sections, particularly non master volume type models that have a lot of their character in the power section (ie Vox AC).

Modellers seem designed to work most logically into SS power amps for monitoring that provide consistant tone at any volume level with minimal skewing of the modelled tone by the monitoring device, but people crave a bit of real tube flavour so power amps like LXII can provide a touch of that "magic" added on to the virtual power amp modelling with little added coloration and with some consistency at varied volumes, however its at the expense of muddying the waters a little with a second power tube section in addition to the virtual one - not muddying the waters nearly so much though, as going thru a typical head/combo fx return that will often significantly skew a model's character with its own depending on volume level set at the head/combo.

In the head/combo fx return scenario vs hi-headroom power amp like LXII, forget (usually) about keeping the same tone at any volume level since the head/combo may start naturally distorting / compressing at some point - best to have p.a. modelling turned off in most FX return scenarios and enjoy whatever tone comes thru - but probably only accurate if the digital pre is modelled from an instance of the same amp as the one being used as power section via FX return - if the pre is not a good match for that head/combo (maybe just luck if it is), could sound like shite even if the full model in FR and/or the head/combo sound glorious separately on their own.
 
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What I am trying to say it is :

Imagine a product that you put in a cab, and that really have the tone of the different heads of the market.

The day we will have that 🫦

For now we have a very great recording tone.
And yes using whatever modeler with a power amp and cab doesn’t sound bad. I m not saying that. You can have a tone you like doing that . But yeah it’s not like really changing heads up the cab like I was doing in my music store etc
 
My favorite is reading YouTube comments for amp demos where people post, "OMG I LOVE THAT AMP I HAVE TO BUY THAT, NO MODELER CAN SOUND THAT GOOD!!!" while they're listening to it through IRs more than 1/2 the time and the others probably through a 57 😂😂😂
 
My favorite is reading YouTube comments for amp demos where people post, "OMG I LOVE THAT AMP I HAVE TO BUY THAT, NO MODELER CAN SOUND THAT GOOD!!!" while they're listening to it through IRs more than 1/2 the time and the others probably through a 57 😂😂😂
Or worse, a cab in the room into an iPhone.
 
On any recording Axe is indistinguishable from real amps . It’s only ever about the player experience.
recorded it’s just another flavor to taste with my ears, each may be ever so slightly seasoned differently but in the end still sounds great. You have just as much variance between real tube amps built in the same line.
 
Or worse, a cab in the room into an iPhone.
Those are fine because then they can’t really prove the amp and cab sounds great. 🤣 But having a 100 watt head into an IR and raving over the sound is pretty on the nose to a modeler, so it just strikes me as hilarious.
 
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I’ve heard so many YouTube amp demos now that I’m not even really sure what a real amp sounds like anymore. Think about it, it’s hilarious.

…ok I’ll show myself out.

I did get a pair of EV PXMs for myself for Christmas and if I put PEQ blocking high and low 120/8k ish, it’s loud AF, moves a lot of air….guess that’s what an amp sounds like to me now only I get the lush stereo effects easily for a very cheap price. 🎸🤘
 
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