Switching screens with FC (clarification)

[DreDawgie]

Forgive this new clarification to a previous thread last month. I wasn't sure how often an old thread gets followed. It seemed because I wasn't clear about the request, the thread strayed a bit. Here are more specifics.


Add 2 or 3 (if needed) parameters for the EZ FC setup for tap or hold. The first parameter would be the main screen type (layout, controllers, tuner etc). Then depending on your selection, enable subparameters. For instance for looper, allow to choose the loop screen or the loop parameter screen. For layout, a sub parameter that allows you to either choose a block (or none for just the main layout). If a block is chosen, a third parameter appears to select an edit screen of that block.

What's cool about this is that you have any screen at your fingertips when you tap on a FC button. The performance tab is cool, but it limits you to those exact settings per knob. With my idea, you can hit one fc switch (lets say you are changing an amp channel) and immediately the screen goes to an amp edit screen (maybe the preamp screen, maybe the tone screen etc) and then with another FC button you enable a delay and the screen goes to delay EQ or Config page.

Often times, when you are performing live or in the studio or using the looper, when you hit a FC button for an effect change your mind doesn't just think "I need delay here", it thinks "I want a delay but will need to have the setting from one edit screen handy" and then want the phaser and want the controls for that. The performance tab is nice, but it assumes you will know what you want ahead of time. That works for some, but others want more fluidity in the moment.

As I said in the original post, Susan Rogers tells a story about Prince rejecting an offer of a multi-effects box over his stomp boxes. That made so much sense to me. When you click on a stompbox, it's EXACTLY THEN that you think about the minor adjustments you want to make on that stompbox (if it's too loud in the mix for instance) and want to tweak them as fast as possible and not think about left-brained navigation issues. Even if you use the performance tab, you might want to adjust the loop with one foot switch and then hit a foot switch to get you to the performance tab, or you might want the phaser or amp settings etc.

 

[lqdsnddist]

I think it’s a good idea and it makes sense in some cases, but in other situations it could be what you don’t want. If your adjusting an amp tone and kick on a delay you might want to keep the amp settings, not have things switch to a delay block. Other times it does make sense to “go to” the parameter you just selected, but what if you want to go to that parameter but not engage it? How would that work as hitting the FC switch to engage is what would change that display page, but then you’d have to bypass the effect right after.

There are certainly times I’d love a quick way to get to the effect page I’m wanting to tweak, and do so from the FC, but I also like having my list of scenes on the LCD and not having that change just because I hit an effects switch.

I think having looper controls display when you change to the looper layout makes good sense, and that would be a good start, but I don’t know if I’d be onboard with every FC press changing the display, unless there was a good way to make it not happen for those things we don’t want to charge.

I think in some ways the FC has to be viewed as a performance tool, not a quicker way to edit the front panel.

 

[DreDawgie]

I think it’s a good idea and it makes sense in some cases, but in other situations it could be what you don’t want. If your adjusting an amp tone and kick on a delay you might want to keep the amp settings, not have things switch to a delay block. Other times it does make sense to “go to” the parameter you just selected, but what if you want to go to that parameter but not engage it? How would that work as hitting the FC switch to engage is what would change that display page, but then you’d have to bypass the effect right after.

There are certainly times I’d love a quick way to get to the effect page I’m wanting to tweak, and do so from the FC, but I also like having my list of scenes on the LCD and not having that change just because I hit an effects switch.

I think having looper controls display when you change to the looper layout makes good sense, and that would be a good start, but I don’t know if I’d be onboard with every FC press changing the display, unless there was a good way to make it not happen for those things we don’t want to charge.

I think in some ways the FC has to be viewed as a performance tool, not a quicker way to edit the front panel.

Well, in that case you could also have an additional option in the function parameter where nothing happens except for a navigation change.
If you say it should be a performance tool, then why not make it as useful as a bunch of stompboxes with all the knobs right there? Just because there are many more options than a stompbox gives doesn't mean we have to make them harder to get to during a performance. THAT would make it a better performance tool. Performing is a very right-brained experience.. you don't want to change brain-modes when you are in a flow with a bunch of navigation button presses.

 

[chris]

And this “change screen” switch wouldn’t do any other function? Just change screens?

 

[DreDawgie]

And this “change screen” switch wouldn’t do any other function? Just change screens?

You could have it both ways. Either set it so nothing else happens or have it change screens AND do whatever existing function you choose.

 

[chris]

i think the idea is cool, but i can't see adding 3 more rows of parameters per switch. it would just look way too confusing for most users. that's so much stuff right there, and the axe is already thought to be "complicated."

if you need to constantly change more than 10 (+10 more global) knobs on the perform screen, perhaps you haven't prepped for the performance enough?

we already have a way to get to all screens in any block with the front panel, and you have to be at the front panel anyway to make these changes. i can't see being at a performance, up at my mic, changing to my "change axe screen" layout, pressing a switch to change to phaser page, then walking back to adjust the axe, walking back to the fc, leaving the layout, then performing.

to me, this isn't a performance aid. it's an editing aid. i shouldn't really be editing that intricately during a gig, and if i need to, i already can with a few more button presses on the front panel.

again, cool idea, but in my opinion, it's more complicated and possibly confusing without too much benefit. this may be one of those ideas where on paper it sounds amazing, but in practice, it wouldn't pan out too well and probably wouldn't be used much.

The performance tab is nice, but it assumes you will know what you want ahead of time.

the same could be said for your idea. you'd need to pre-program 12 switches to get to specific pages in specific blocks. what if you didn't program the rotary? you're in the same situation.

the intended "fast" way to edit blocks on a whim is Axe-Edit.

 

[chris]

a similar idea has been that anytime you enable an effect, the Axe3 screen changes to the edit screen of that effect. i can understand this situation better, but personally i don't want my axe screen changing constantly like that throughout the gig. so as an option, that'd be cool.

but what about Scenes? you change to a scene that enables a delay effect... does the screen change? to what? do i have to quickly double click the Delay switch - assuming i have one - to get the screen up?

we already have a way to get to the screens we want with the front panel, again, where we need to be anyway to adjust things.

i personally think the Perform tab(s) are a great addition that solves this "change it quick" issue. 10 global parameters (things you tend to always change) and 10 per preset. that's 20 specific parameters without menu diving. and if you need more than 20 things, then just go to the edit block with a few more taps.

making things more complicated to make things easier has never been a goal of FAS developers, in my experience.

and again - i do truly like all these ideas. but as a beta team member, i've learned to think about implementation from the big picture point of view.

 

[DreDawgie]

a similar idea has been that anytime you enable an effect, the Axe3 screen changes to the edit screen of that effect. i can understand this situation better, but personally i don't want my axe screen changing constantly like that throughout the gig. so as an option, that'd be cool.

but what about Scenes? you change to a scene that enables a delay effect... does the screen change? to what? do i have to quickly double click the Delay switch - assuming i have one - to get the screen up?

we already have a way to get to the screens we want with the front panel, again, where we need to be anyway to adjust things.

i personally think the Perform tab(s) are a great addition that solves this "change it quick" issue. 10 global parameters (things you tend to always change) and 10 per preset. that's 20 specific parameters without menu diving. and if you need more than 20 things, then just go to the edit block with a few more taps.

making things more complicated to make things easier has never been a goal of FAS developers, in my experience.

and again - i do truly like all these ideas. but as a beta team member, i've learned to think about implementation from the big picture point of view.

I think it's just a different approach, another option that can be switched on or off. You can make the FC complicated or simple as is. It doesn't have to be complicated with screen changes, it depends on the user and how he/she sets it up. Yeah, there are those who say that they don't want to walk back to change settings. There are those that might have the Axe FX closer at hand, perhaps on a little stand. When you have stompboxes you just bend over and switch a knob if something like a modulation is out of time with the song or whatever. Even if you have a huge pedal board you can do that. The Axe FX with a FC is like a huge pedal board, so why not make it more like one and make it one more step easier to do things on the fly?

Changing scenes depend on the user too. Some people might want to go to the layout screen. Some people might want to go to the looper. Some people might want to go to a certain effect.

Look, the MFC-101 had the functionality far more hardcoded, so the argument that you make about being too complicated could apply to the FC itself. The point of the foot controller redesign was to make it more flexible than the MFC-101. So why not take it to its logical conclusion?

 

[chris]

You can make the FC complicated or simple as is. It doesn't have to be complicated with screen changes, it depends on the user and how he/she sets it up.

my general point is that just having those 3 extra parameters on the Switch setup in EZ makes it seem more daunting than it is.

 

[DreDawgie]

a similar idea has been that anytime you enable an effect, the Axe3 screen changes to the edit screen of that effect. i can understand this situation better, but personally i don't want my axe screen changing constantly like that throughout the gig. so as an option, that'd be cool.

but what about Scenes? you change to a scene that enables a delay effect... does the screen change? to what? do i have to quickly double click the Delay switch - assuming i have one - to get the screen up?

we already have a way to get to the screens we want with the front panel, again, where we need to be anyway to adjust things.

i personally think the Perform tab(s) are a great addition that solves this "change it quick" issue. 10 global parameters (things you tend to always change) and 10 per preset. that's 20 specific parameters without menu diving. and if you need more than 20 things, then just go to the edit block with a few more taps.

making things more complicated to make things easier has never been a goal of FAS developers, in my experience.

and again - i do truly like all these ideas. but as a beta team member, i've learned to think about implementation from the big picture point of view.

And if for instance, you set it so it goes to the advanced parameters of every effect, on a FC-12 you have 8 or more settings per effect screen so assuming you have two switches for navigating to a different FC layout, that's still 80 possible parameters you can get to with a tap of the FC.

 

[DreDawgie]

my general point is that just having those 3 extra parameters on the Switch setup in EZ makes it seem more daunting than it is.

Because users of the Axe Fx are going to flip out like it's the last straw on the camel's back? Like perhaps having a heading in a different color or some other UI technique couldn't address that?

 

[lqdsnddist]

Why not get a tablet or something you can mount on a mic stand, and then run something like Fracpad if you want to be able to call up parameters on the fly, assuming you don’t like using AxeEdit ?

Using the FC as a tool to navigate the front panel controls isn’t a bad idea per say, but as Chris previously said, you still would need to configure it for the parameters you wanted, and it wouldn’t do any good for being able to select and insert effects into the chain, only letting you bring up a given controller page quicker, but you’d still need to be going to the grid, moving and selecting blocks via the front panel.

That all seems like exactly what an editor software is created for doing, no?

Then if one doesn’t want a PC, or cords, there is Fracpad so you can tweak that stuff remotely, again far faster than the front panel.

I’m not against the idea as an option, but I don’t know if making the FC basically serve as a front panel navigation tool, of limited versatility, really would rank that high on the usefulness list for a lot of people, and seems like it would require a lot of work to implement it, so while I can’t speak for FAS, it seems like this idea might be low on the priority list.

But you never know....

 

[DreDawgie]

Why not get a tablet or something you can mount on a mic stand, and then run something like Fracpad if you want to be able to call up parameters on the fly, assuming you don’t like using AxeEdit ?

Using the FC as a tool to navigate the front panel controls isn’t a bad idea per say, but as Chris previously said, you still would need to configure it for the parameters you wanted, and it wouldn’t do any good for being able to select and insert effects into the chain, only letting you bring up a given controller page quicker, but you’d still need to be going to the grid, moving and selecting blocks via the front panel.

That all seems like exactly what an editor software is created for doing, no?

Then if one doesn’t want a PC, or cords, there is Fracpad so you can tweak that stuff remotely, again far faster than the front panel.

I’m not against the idea as an option, but I don’t know if making the FC basically serve as a front panel navigation tool, of limited versatility, really would rank that high on the usefulness list for a lot of people, and seems like it would require a lot of work to implement it, so while I can’t speak for FAS, it seems like this idea might be low on the priority list.

But you never know....

I think that if FAS tried to implement it, it might be something that takes several iterations to get right perhaps. It obviously won't be all things for all people, and it can be as simple or complicated as the user chooses to make it. I guess I just keep on coming back to some of the objections of folks like Prince and even some stompbox users that I know who very much enjoy the "it's all right there" functionality of stompboxes. You know, folks that like being able to morph their sound mid-solo while on a whim while hanging on a note but without it being too distracting to that inpired musical flow-state.

The Axe Fx III is an engineering marvel but there's only so many knobs on it (granted many outside controller options), so until the Axe FX 4 addresses that seamless user experience, why not try to make it that much more flexible via software?

Don't get me wrong, I often get in nerd mode and tweak the hell of my presets beforehand and love my results, I have endless love for my III, however that's a very different experience from being right there in-the-moment and thinking "I want to do this or that in the most intuitive and shortest amount of steps possible". Maybe it's because I'm a multi-instrumentalist and love knobby synths too for that same flow-state reason.

 

[DreDawgie]

One thing you can tell right away with the Axe FX 3 is that is was developed (quite brilliantly) by engineers, but also they didn't involve people with psychology or user-experience backgrounds. I hope that changes as the product evolves. It's as if it's designed for other engineers and not truly for guitarists. That's said, until they make it better, you'll still have to rip it out of my cold dead hands.

 

[favance]

One thing you can tell right away with the Axe FX 3 is that is was developed (quite brilliantly) by engineers, but also they didn't involve people with psychology or user-experience backgrounds. I hope that changes as the product evolves. It's as if it's designed for other engineers and not truly for guitarists. That's said, until they make it better, you'll still have to rip it out of my cold dead hands.

That said, we need System Engineers, Project Managers, SCRUM Masters, and Senior Managers to bugger up the product and exceed reasonable market cost expectations...

 

[DreDawgie]

That said, we need System Engineers, Project Managers, SCRUM Masters, and Senior Managers to bugger up the product and exceed reasonable market cost expectations...

I hear there's some former MIT Media Lab folks looking for work. ;-)
See what I did there?

 

[chris]

I think that if FAS tried to implement it, it might be something that takes several iterations to get right perhaps. It obviously won't be all things for all people, and it can be as simple or complicated as the user chooses to make it. I guess I just keep on coming back to some of the objections of folks like Prince and even some stompbox users that I know who very much enjoy the "it's all right there" functionality of stompboxes. You know, folks that like being able to morph their sound mid-solo while on a whim while hanging on a note but without it being too distracting to that inpired musical flow-state.

The Axe Fx III is an engineering marvel but there's only so many knobs on it (granted many outside controller options), so until the Axe FX 4 addresses that seamless user experience, why not try to make it that much more flexible via software?

Don't get me wrong, I often get in nerd mode and tweak the hell of my presets beforehand and love my results, I have endless love for my III, however that's a very different experience from being right there in-the-moment and thinking "I want to do this or that in the most intuitive and shortest amount of steps possible". Maybe it's because I'm a multi-instrumentalist and love knobby synths too for that same flow-state reason.

i see what you're getting at, but i personally don't see that happening on the unit itself. it's already come a very long way. bigger screen, knobs under it for fast edits, perform screen, etc.

but people want an "iphone experience." i think the solution lies in the Axe-Edit experience. i just can't see a hardware solution that would satisfy everyone without a major re-do and touch-screen interface. but i wouldn't want that, personally.

 

[DreDawgie]

i see what you're getting at, but i personally don't see that happening on the unit itself. it's already come a very long way. bigger screen, knobs under it for fast edits, perform screen, etc.

but people want an "iphone experience." i think the solution lies in the Axe-Edit experience. i just can't see a hardware solution that would satisfy everyone without a major re-do and touch-screen interface. but i wouldn't want that, personally.

Anything that puts as makes as many param settings available on the fly in the fewest clicks would be great.

 

[lqdsnddist]

One thing you can tell right away with the Axe FX 3 is that is was developed (quite brilliantly) by engineers, but also they didn't involve people with psychology or user-experience backgrounds. I hope that changes as the product evolves. It's as if it's designed for other engineers and not truly for guitarists. That's said, until they make it better, you'll still have to rip it out of my cold dead hands.

FAS has quite an extensive beta testing team, and gets plenty of input from lots of world famous touring musicians and their guitar techs etc. in addition Cliff and everyone else at FAS are guitar players with years of experience.

Fractal gear is truly built for musicians, by musicians.