Suhr Thornbuckers in a PRS Custom 24

What you're describing doesn't sound like just a bright/dark thing to me, and that's why EQ adjustments don't fix it, or at least don't do exactly what you expect. In my limited experience, neither does changing pickups.

I'm not trying to discourage you - experiment to you heart's content, and if you wind up with something you like...that's awesome. I'm also extrapolating a bit...I don't have a Custom 24 to play with.

But...I've had a similar experience with my 594, especially "compared" to my Les Paul. Which the internet says should sound extremely similar. They're both LP-ish, and they both have SD PAF clones...in the past, they both had Seth Lovers (the LP has different SD PAF clones now). The pickup positions along the string are different, which obviously changes things.

The nut, fret, and saddle materials and the fret size are all different...species of wood are the same, but the details are different. Finish is different. Etc.. All those things should be responsible for none to little of the difference, according to most of the internet.

The pickup positions alone might be responsible for what I'm hearing. Or not. I don't know.

What I do know, from doing something else and having a spectrum analyzer running while I was playing the other day....is that the overtone series that each guitar creates is very different.

The overtone series (the magnitude balance between different overtones of the fundamental(s) you're playing) are what's responsible for making one thing sound different from another when you're playing the same note. E.g., if you use a brickwall low pass filter just over the fundamental, you can make a guitar and a piano both sound basically like a sine wave synth, at least in terms of timbre (not envelope). That statement is not arguable.

What I noticed from seeing the spectrum analyzer out of the corner of my eye (and then actively watching it) is that (played clean) the 594 creates a very strong 1st overtone (louder than the fundamental - very common with electric guitars), and a good bit of 2nd and less 3rd overtones...and then the strength of subsequent ones dies off very quickly. This happens all up and down the neck.

My Les Paul, OTOH, creates an overtone series very similar for the first few, but the higher overtones are a lot louder. It looks like it's putting out more high end, and in a sense it is. But, it's because of the extended overtone series.

The fundamentals of guitars only go up to ~1.2k (for the high note on a 24-fret in standard tuning). Everything higher is overtones (and if you're playing clean, they come from the guitar).

Now....why these particular guitars are creating such different overtone series....that I don't know. But, they are. And that's why they sound different.

The effect is that a lot of of the high end on the 594 is created in the amp (when it's running dirty or at least not actually clean). Boosting high-end on the way in won't really make it sound like a bright Les Paul (not that I want it to).

I think that the effect of it not generating high overtones is responsible both for why people say PRSs lack soul (they literally sound less different from a pure sine wave than many other guitars) and why people who don't dislike them say they sound very "hifi" - they won't create the same intermodulation products when the amp is running dirty....it'll be a "cleaner" or "clearer" distortion sound, even when heavily distorted. That's also why the LP needs less gain to "scream" - the higher overtones from the guitar also distort, creating even more higher overtones, which is what we hear as distortion (along with flattening the envelope), and if nothing else, the PRS is going to create neither the high overtones nor the intermodulation products they create when you're playing dirty. The PRS will need more gain to "scream" as much, and that'll be true whether it's louder or not....and it'll never be "the same" unless you're running such high-gain that the amp basically turns everything into a square wave (which is what it actually takes for Glenn Fricker to be right that nothing matters except the speaker).

And it seems like you can't change it that much with changing pickups.

Experiment all you want. You may find something you like. But, you might end up just not liking the guitar. Until you dig into the details, PRSs don't make sense - it seems like they all "sound dark" even when they don't actually sound dark.

I kinda like it for my 594. It's better at high-gain than my LP....but I don't actually play high gain except for funzies. So, that doesn't matter to me. It's also a more "pure" sounding clean tone that I kind of like, though it's not "bright" like a strat clean, not at all. It's got its own thing going on despite them claiming it was supposed to be an "updated" LP designed by Ted McCarty. But, it's not a LP replacement. If that's what I'd wanted...I would have sold it by now.

When I saw (evidence of) that overtone series on the meter...all my feelings/judgements about my 594 suddenly made complete sense.
 
@marsonic describes exactly what I am hearing. I lowered the pole pieces again and raised up the pickups. Maybe I'll revisit it again in the future, but it only takes like 2 minutes to change. There might be a little less clarity (whatever difference there is probably isn't noticeable in a mix), but what I'm hearing isn't mud, it's the harmonic structure thing. I don't mind it, per se -- I can't stop playing this guitar, after all -- but it's definitely very different. This explanation helps, and explains (at least for me) how different guitars from the same tree can also sound so different.

Edit to add: if y'all listen to these clips and tell me the ones with the pole pieces are better to your ears, I'm happy to go back, because I really don't hear a difference apart from the lower pickups and lesser gain structure.
 
Have you tried adjusting the pickup heights? Most of the time it's all you need.

And/or pole screws...

I will first admit that I have not read every post in this thread so if this has been covered multiple times, I apologize.

I play mostly PRS and Suhr guitars. I love them both. I have not heard any of the newer PRS pickups sound muddy or dark. They are doing a good job in the pickup department these days and have been for the past decade.

These posts I quoted above are a big thing that many people miss before they start swapping pickups out. I have a PRS P22 that has a set of pickups in it that they didn't make for very long. I honestly didn't like them much when I first started playing the guitar. I changed the setup on the strings to my liking but thought the pickups looked okay at that time. When I got to the point where I thought the guitar really needed a pickup change I revisited the setup. I noticed that the pickups were actually pretty far away from the strings. I started raising them up while playing the guitar through my rid and the sound started improving immediately. I raised them to the point where they were actually brighter than I cared for so I lowered them back down a bit and got them in a range that I really like. It also helped bring the output volume of them up a bit, which was another issue I was having with them. Always try adjusting before replacement. It doesn't cost anything but a little time.
 
@marsonic describes exactly what I am hearing. I lowered the pole pieces again and raised up the pickups. Maybe I'll revisit it again in the future, but it only takes like 2 minutes to change. There might be a little less clarity (whatever difference there is probably isn't noticeable in a mix), but what I'm hearing isn't mud, it's the harmonic structure thing. I don't mind it, per se -- I can't stop playing this guitar, after all -- but it's definitely very different. This explanation helps, and explains (at least for me) how different guitars from the same tree can also sound so different.

Edit to add: if y'all listen to these clips and tell me the ones with the pole pieces are better to your ears, I'm happy to go back, because I really don't hear a difference apart from the lower pickups and lesser gain structure.
Good that you are trying this. If I had looked at the end of the thread before posting, I could have saved some time. lol

Set the pole pieces even with the top of the pickups and set the pickup height first. Only adjust the pole pieces if you need to raise or lower the volume of an individual string.
 
Pickup heights were all set up before engaging on this little side quest, but I might experiment with lowering the bass side further and raising the treble side. I like some aspect of raising the pole pieces, but I lost so much of the guitar's output. I didn't like that as much.
 
Have you checked out Lambertones? They are specifically designed for modern worship tones.

I love Thornbuckers, but find them too aggressive for P&W. I had them in my CU22, but they just didn't gel with that guitar. I replaced them with Kinman P90Buckers and those worked better in that guitar IMHO. But the Thornbucker in my Melancon Classic Artist rules! But not for P&W. Every guitar is different. A pickup that sounds great in one guitar may be a real dud in a different guitar.

But for P&W I am either Lambertones, P90, or single coil (Strat or Tele).
 
I use a Ultra Luxe Tele for P&W a lot, but just like airy sounding pickups with lots of high overtones and attack I think. I'm always in the progress of discovering more. Sometimes I bring my PRS for church, and it doesn't feel too high output for me, but different strokes and all.
 
But...I've had a similar experience with my 594, especially "compared" to my Les Paul. Which the internet says should sound extremely similar. They're both LP-ish, and they both have SD PAF clones...in the past, they both had Seth Lovers (the LP has different SD PAF clones now). The pickup positions along the string are different, which obviously changes things.
What I do know, from doing something else and having a spectrum analyzer running while I was playing the other day....is that the overtone series that each guitar creates is very different.

I just bought a Seth Lover for the bridge in my Ibanez AZ2204N. Wasn’t happy with the bridge bucker. Looking for more warmth in the same output level. It’s an alder body maple neck HSS. Hopefully I’ll like it. Which other PAF clones did you replace the Seth’s with? One PAF type pickup I’ve tried is the Duncan 59. This is on a cheap mahogany Ibanez that has went through more pickups than any other I’ve owned. The 59’s in this guitar are super bright. I wasn’t expecting that. It’s just not a great sounding guitar so I use it for non standard tunings and I’m not throwing any more money at it.

One thought for the OP: Make presets for your dark guitar. I mean, why not? It’s not like you need to go out and buy a new amp. A lot of a guitars tone is baked into the guitar and sometimes pickups can’t get around that.
 
Hey all! I've had my Custom 24 (Core) for a bit over a month now and I don't really get on with the 85/15 pickups. (Happy for those of you that do, of course.) I'm looking at swapping them for Suhr Thornbuckers.

In an effort to make this conversation easier, here's what I dislike about them:

  • People talk about how PRS pickups have extended highs and lows, but I don't hear that. I do hear a lack of mids, though, which could cause some to say the highs and lows are extended. Turning up the mids on any amp just sort of makes it worse.
  • The low end is squishy, with a lack of attack. I'm a very aggressive picker (I cut my teeth learning to play like James Hetfield), I use Jazz IIIs for my picks, and the attack on these is just kind of muddy. The tone of the low end is ok, but so much of how I use the sixth string is about the attack.
  • The high end is rolled off in a way I don't find particularly useful. As a consequence, I'm always adding a lot more presence or treble the amps than I'd like, and I feel I have a hard time cutting in the mix with the PRS (compared to my LP, which is very bright, or my Tele, which is also very bright). A side effect of this is that I feel the tone knob is useless; I might as well disconnect it from the circuit entirely.
One last note before I move on: folks talk about how the 85/15 is high output, but compared to my Slash Les Paul (which sounds like it has a built-in preamp), I don't feel like this is high output. It's not low, but it's also not high. (And compared to my EMG-equipped JEM clone, it's very low output.)

Here's what I do like about the PRS pickups:

  • There is clarity here that I really enjoy, especially in the single coil modes. Clear as a bell. Consequently, really clean sounds are wonderful.
  • The single coil modes are also excellent.

Most of the time, though, I'm on the bridge or neck in humbucker mode, and I just don't jive with it.

I'm considering putting in Thornbuckers. I like that you can split them (which rules out the Lollar Imperials, for example), and I like their output level (a little more output than 50s PAFs, but not very aggressive, still sparkly clean if need be). And to be honest, they sound more like a Les Paul to me, with a bright and crisp high-end on the bridge, air in the treble range, and good attack in the lower registers, which is my general preference. I found this Youtube video, which went over a sound demo of Thornbuckers in a Custom 24 into a Boogie Mk V:25, an amp I own and am very familiar with, and I think it sounds fantastic. But I have a few questions:

  1. Has anybody put Thornbuckers in their Custom 24? Do you like them? Is the aforementioned video a good reference?
  2. I don't think I want the Thornbucker +, because I would prefer lower output. But what is the difference between the Thornbucker and the Thornbucker II? And for a PRS, do I need 50mm or 53mm pickups?
  3. What would be the best way to handle splits? The Custom 24 ships with the following, from Positions 1-5: Neck Humbucker, both split, both humbuckers, split bridge and humbucking neck, and bridge humbucker. I assume the same configuration with the Thornbuckers would probably sound like poop, but don't know what I should ask for when I bring the guitar to my tech.
One last note, then I'm done: I don't know how to solder, and I don't want to spend thousands on this, so I'd prefer for this decision to be made once and then done. So I'm not looking for a shopping list of pickups :) but if you think the Thornbuckers are a bad call for somebody like me, I am all ears.

Thanks everybody! Sorry for the novel.
I have done this in my C24, Thornbuckers. They sound good. In my black Suhr Modern T I have swap them for a set of DA's (Dough Aldrich) set that to me sounds a bit better humbucker and single coil modes. Both sets I have put thru my Mesa Mark III and they sound great. It is until you put them next to a great replica PAF set that you will hear and feel the greatness of a PAF, my choice for this is WIZZ Pickups, but I only have them in my Les Paul guitars.

If your C24 is those that come with a blade switch than a super switch will take case of the splits.

Bareknuckles are great pickups too.


 
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A little more time putting the ruler down and dialling in the pickup heights by ear, and just by lowering the bass side and raising the treble side, I'm getting more of what I like: more attack in the lows, more output in the highs. The attack is so much better. Still messing around, and one day maybe I'll change the pickups out, but I'm at the point after all this messing about that I'm starting to like what I'm getting from this better than the LP.

As always, I guess, use your ears and not your eyes.

A couple other observations: turning down the mids cleans up this guitar's attack a lot too and brings more clarity to the mids, so I guess there are more mids in here than I originally thought. Increase treble a bit to compensate in some amps I've tried. Works a trick so far.

I will admit I still find the LP easier to dial in, but the sound of an LP is such a huge part of our musical culture that it's like second nature.

Oh, and also, I had not done a low cut on a lot of the delays and verbs in my worship preset, and that was immeasurably helpful in solving that problem, so my thanks to whoever helped with that.
 
Which other PAF clones did you replace the Seth’s with?

SD Custom Shop Skinnerburst pickups. They were kind of a lucky find and an anniversary gift from my wife. I bought them mostly for vibe (yeah, really expensive just for vibe - they cost more than my birth year MIJ Strat) and expected them to sound basically the same..which they did. I'm under the impression that they're vaguely comparable to SD Antiquities, which are comparable to Seth Lovers with whatever the fake-aging does to them.

And, yeah, they're all on the bright/articulate side of humbuckers and in the ballpark of every other PAF replica I've ever played or heard.

One PAF type pickup I’ve tried is the Duncan 59. This is on a cheap mahogany Ibanez that has went through more pickups than any other I’ve owned. The 59’s in this guitar are super bright.

Well...all PAFs are going to lean bright compared to more modern humbuckers. That's kind of the point. AFAIK, 59s are potted and not wound on the same machine and with different bobbins...no idea how much of that actually matters in practice. 57 Classics are also PAF-like and potted, so they're bright....I don't know what's different between them and 59s, but I like the guitars I've played that come with them better than 59s...but still wouldn't go out of my way to buy either over Seth Lovers.

I think I put a 59/JB set in my Epi SG at some point a long time ago, but I wasn't wow'd. I think I remember damaging them when I tried to take the covers off (and getting wax everywhere) and didn't bother trying to fix them (also bought them used like 15 years ago on a whim). I might have left them in the case when I sold that guitar. I don't remember.

I hear differences in recordings of different PAF replicas...but nothing to really get bent out of shape over. I keep coming back to Seth Lovers because they're unpotted (like the originals) and wound on one of the machines SD got from the Kalamazoo Gibson factory that was used to wind some of the originals and with bobbins made from the same mold. That's generally enough "vibe" in pickups for me, and they're relatively affordable and easy to order.

The Skinnerburst pickups were extravagant and silly to spend that much on, but they're lifer pickups for me, even if I end up eventually selling the guitar they're in. But, IMHO, unless there's just something that you really want, Seth Lovers are where I'd go for a PAF sound. Or probably Antiquities in a relic'd guitar just because.

For more modern-sounding (darker/thciker) humbuckers...I have no preferences because I don't care. But, every SD pickup I've put in a guitar has been an upgrade over stock in at least some way, so that's where I'd go first.
 
I will admit I still find the LP easier to dial in, but the sound of an LP is such a huge part of our musical culture that it's like second nature.

Agreed.

I still prefer the "burst tone", but...I just like that sound. Every electric guitar I owned before I got my Gibson LP has been sold. It kinda changed my world, and I felt foolish for avoiding them for so long.

I'm starting to like what I'm getting from this better than the LP.

Awesome!

Sometimes, just understanding what's going on can help, and I hope what I said helped you with that (instead of confusing you more). But, it sounds like I did.

One thing for me...after I saw that overtone series, I abandoned my often-attempted but never-completed task of EQing my PRS on the way into the fractal. It won't do anything meaningful, so I just won't bother trying and will just let it be itself. I am still EQing my strat on the way in, but part of that is that it's so weak in comparison to my other guitars that the highs get ice-picky if I just boost it. And setting my amps so that neck humbuckers are still articulate exaggerate those ice picks even more. But, I can "fix" that and let it still sound like a strat....so, that's what I do (switching to .047 caps was also a big part of it).
 
And lowering the LP's bridge pickup on the bass side really helps remove that boominess too, so it works great.

All this trial and error today has really helped me shape my guitars into something I like: good attack, nice highs, round bodies. The LP is my favourite without that bass bump, but probably the least useful outside of the studio with all its gain. Still though: I feel much more confident making changes now than I did before, and will spend some time with the neck pickup on the LP (eventually) to get it to my liking too.

And if I do decide to replace the pickups on the PRS one day (and I still might!), it'll be easier to describe why when I reach out to Bareknuckle. For now, I'm going to take @marsonic's words to heart and try to let these guitars all be what they're supposed to be.

Always learning. Thanks everybody.
 
LP neck pickups should ship low from factory change my mind haha.
You're probably not wrong, but I'll add a big caveat that I think LP guitars have so much inconsistency with pickup heights that it's not a good situation right now. They should ship equally high or low from the factory, so that when I play them at the store, I'm not second guessing anything. I like trying out LPs in the store, because there's so much variation between them, and every time I do that, an employee comes around asking if they need to raise or lower the pickups. They don't do that when I try other guitars. They shouldn't feel the need to.

PRS pickups ship so low from the factory that they're practically beneath the pickup rings. I'd rather they ship those a little higher.
 
SD Custom Shop Skinnerburst pickups. They were kind of a lucky find and an anniversary gift from my wife. I bought them mostly for vibe (yeah, really expensive just for vibe - they cost more than my birth year MIJ Strat) and expected them to sound basically the same..which they did. I'm under the impression that they're vaguely comparable to SD Antiquities, which are comparable to Seth Lovers with whatever the fake-aging does to them.

And, yeah, they're all on the bright/articulate side of humbuckers and in the ballpark of every other PAF replica I've ever played or heard.



Well...all PAFs are going to lean bright compared to more modern humbuckers. That's kind of the point. AFAIK, 59s are potted and not wound on the same machine and with different bobbins...no idea how much of that actually matters in practice. 57 Classics are also PAF-like and potted, so they're bright....I don't know what's different between them and 59s, but I like the guitars I've played that come with them better than 59s...but still wouldn't go out of my way to buy either over Seth Lovers.

I think I put a 59/JB set in my Epi SG at some point a long time ago, but I wasn't wow'd. I think I remember damaging them when I tried to take the covers off (and getting wax everywhere) and didn't bother trying to fix them (also bought them used like 15 years ago on a whim). I might have left them in the case when I sold that guitar. I don't remember.

I hear differences in recordings of different PAF replicas...but nothing to really get bent out of shape over. I keep coming back to Seth Lovers because they're unpotted (like the originals) and wound on one of the machines SD got from the Kalamazoo Gibson factory that was used to wind some of the originals and with bobbins made from the same mold. That's generally enough "vibe" in pickups for me, and they're relatively affordable and easy to order.

The Skinnerburst pickups were extravagant and silly to spend that much on, but they're lifer pickups for me, even if I end up eventually selling the guitar they're in. But, IMHO, unless there's just something that you really want, Seth Lovers are where I'd go for a PAF sound. Or probably Antiquities in a relic'd guitar just because.

For more modern-sounding (darker/thciker) humbuckers...I have no preferences because I don't care. But, every SD pickup I've put in a guitar has been an upgrade over stock in at least some way, so that's where I'd go first.

Yikes! There’s a Skinnerburst set on Reverb asking $610.
 
You're probably not wrong, but I'll add a big caveat that I think LP guitars have so much inconsistency with pickup heights that it's not a good situation right now. They should ship equally high or low from the factory, so that when I play them at the store, I'm not second guessing anything. I like trying out LPs in the store, because there's so much variation between them, and every time I do that, an employee comes around asking if they need to raise or lower the pickups. They don't do that when I try other guitars. They shouldn't feel the need to.

PRS pickups ship so low from the factory that they're practically beneath the pickup rings. I'd rather they ship those a little higher.
Oh they are consistent - they ship very high from factory in my experience. Never had any staff anywhere ask to alter the pickups in any way either haha.
 
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