Stupid MIDI question

unix-guy said:
It isn't simple... It's outside the designed paradigm of scenes.

There are numerous wishes for some way to exclude or lock blocks from scene changes.
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Separating selection of the amp channel from the FX patches is basic from a USER perspective.

I spent a decade early in my career developing embedded code, so I get that it may not be straightforward to the coder....but the traditional use case is a multi-channel amp that switches separately from all of the FX.
 
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That's the reason I never used scenes. I switch things while playing. Going to a different scene switches them back to their default state. Because of that scenes are useless to me.
If I was able to assign an external controller to a channel, their states survive channel und preset changes, it was a whole different thing. That would allow to setup a 4 channel amp with independent effects.
 
unix-guy said:
Yes, independently... But you are asking to use them combined.
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Right, because the amp channel is allowed to be set by a CC with value 0-3. It just seems like a logical approach to use a standard A/B on-off pair.

My better approach here might be one of the more capable MIDI boards.
 
666was999 said:
That's the reason I never used scenes. I switch things while playing. Going to a different scene switches them back to their default state. Because of that scenes are useless to me.
If I was able to assign an external controller to a channel, their states survive channel und preset changes, it was a whole different thing. That would allow to setup a 4 channel amp with independent effects.
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Yeah, but my use case relies on switching a whole bunch of stuff at once. That's why I went to a MIDI rack and a three-channel amp years ago. There's nothing in my patch library that the Axe FX can't do, but it seems that accessing it all is problematic.

The manual seems to say that you can tie a MIDI controller to a given block channel (page 46). I just don't know how to tie that to a control on the FC-12. It seems odd that you could do it with MIDI and not with the FC-12.
 
FullThrottle64 said:
Separating the amp from the FX is basic from a USER perspective.
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You can already do that... Change channel on the Amp block.

What you're asking as to treat the Amp block as if it's a real amp external to the rest of the signal chain. But it isn't.

I get the reasoning... That's why I made the wish I posted before. ;)
 
FullThrottle64 said:
Yeah, but my use case relies on switching a whole bunch of stuff at once. That's why I went to a MIDI rack and a three-channel amp years ago. There's nothing in my patch library that the Axe FX can't do, but it seems that accessing it all is problematic.
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Yeah, you could do that when you could change amp channels with a switch and they stayed that way when you change effects via scenes.

When you assign an external controller to a parameter it will hold it's value or state even when you change presets or scenes. But you can't assign a modifier to a channel so you can't get a channel to survive a scene change.
 
If I understand this correctly, another way this wish has been expressed in the past is: exclude a block from the scene switch. 99% of the time, the block in question is the amp block, so this could also be expressed as: provide an option to leave the amp block unchanged when switching scenes.
 
GlennO said:
If I understand this correctly, another way this wish has been expressed in the past is: exclude a block from the scene switch. 99% of the time, the block in question is the amp block, so this could also be expressed as: provide an option to leave the amp block unchanged when switching scenes.
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Precisely!
 
GlennO said:
If I understand this correctly, another way this wish has been expressed in the past is: exclude a block from the scene switch. 99% of the time, the block in question is the amp block, so this could also be expressed as: provide an option to leave the amp block unchanged when switching scenes.
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I added to that wish that a block be allowed to choose Scene, None, or any other block in the preset as a source for which channel it should use, so that a single block's channel could be independent of scene changes and lead some subset of the other blocks in the preset to change to the same channel as the leader (i.e., switch to B, all following also switch to B). It would act as a 'scene-within-a-scene', giving each of the 8 scenes the ability to expand by a factor of 4 at the minimum. Combine this with the control switch channel switching, and you would have a ton of flexibility....
 
Yes, I wish for the same things within the Fractal control paradigm as well. You can achieve this with a 3rd party midi controller with a few caveats. As I’m really only familiar with the Liquidfoot paradigm, I’ll refer to its functionality (I would guess that RJM can do something similar).

With a LF+ device, one could set an instant access switch (IA) as persistent across LF preset changes (referred to as a global IA, though this does not directly correspond to Fractal global blocks). A global IA can retrigger its last value on an LF preset change, trigger an On value, trigger a bypass value, or send no command; this choice is determined on a LF preset-by-preset basis. So with that in mind, there are a lot of ways of having something like an amp channel (set as a global IA) to behave across LF presets. For example:
  • Selecting an amp channel that remains the same with different blocks enabled/disabled/switching respective channels without changing Fractal patches or scenes
  • Selecting an amp channel that remains the same when switching between different scenes
  • Selecting an amp channel that remains the same across different Fractal patches using a Fractal amp global block.
  • Allowing an amp change change for any of the Fractal patches/scenes referenced above.
  • etc...
The major caveat is that there are possibilities for audio hickups when selecting different patches or scenes that have been saved with a different amp channel than whatever the LF global IA has been set to. So lets say you select amp channel B on the LF global IA. You then select a different LF preset that triggers Fractal scene 2, which has been saved with amp channel C. There's a chance you will hear the artifact of changing from amp channel B to C and then back B.

Sorry if this is a little pedantic, I'm never quite sure with this forum how deep of an explanation is sought/needed. Regardless, I find this to achieve what I want from my rig, without adhering to Fractal's control paradigm.
 
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jamongrande said:
Yes, I wish for the same things within the Fractal control paradigm as well. You can achieve this with a 3rd party midi controller with a few caveats. As I’m really only familiar with the Liquidfoot paradigm, I’ll refer to its functionality (I would guess that RJM can do something similar).

With a LF+ device, one could set an instant access switch (IA) as persistent across LF preset changes (referred to as a global IA, though this does not directly correspond to Fractal global blocks). A global IA can retrigger it's last value on an LF preset change, trigger an On value, trigger a bypass value, or send no command; this choice is determined on a LF preset-by-preset basis. So with that in mind, there are a lot of ways of having something like an amp channel (set as a global IA) to behave across LF presets. For example:
  • Selecting an amp channel that remains the same with different blocks enabled/disabled/switching respective channels without changing Fractal patches or scenes
  • Selecting an amp channel that remains the same when switching between different scenes
  • Selecting an amp channel that remains the same across different Fractal patches using a Fractal amp global block.
  • Triggering an amp change for any of the Fractal patches referenced above.
  • etc...
The major caveat is that there are possibilities for audio hickups when selecting different patches or scenes that have been saved with a different amp channel than whatever the LF global IA has been set to. So lets say you select amp channel B on the LF global IA. You then select a different LF preset that triggers Fractal scene 2, which has been saved with amp channel C. There's a chance you will hear the artifact of changing from amp channel B to C and then back B.

Sorry if this is a little pedantic, I'm never quite sure with this forum how deep of an explanation is sought/needed. Regardless, I find this to achieve what I want from my rig, without adhering to Fractal's control paradigm.
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Channel changes will be smoothest if the amp model stays the same.
 
Yeah, I find that amp, cabinet, and drive changes cause the most significant artifacts, though it has been addressed over various firmwares. A long time ago I experimented with the different artifacts caused by channel switching and found that certain amp combinations were noticeably smoother than others; again I would want to experiment again with that given firmwares.

A follow-on thought about channel switching/scenes/3rd party midi devices: I've settled into using scenes for specific amp and cabinet combinations, leaving all other effects bypassed in the saved scene. I specify the activate and channel states for all other effects in the LF presets.
 
fractalz said:
Yeah, more cost but pretty much hassle free.

or, keep your head, get a load box and then into the fractal.
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I already have the load box; the whole point of the Fractal for me is to stop carrying a 55lb tube head and the Torpedo Live that goes with it. As much as I love the sound, it's just a pain to deal with.

My current rig is:
Bogner XTC

Rack:
Torpedo Live
Rack FX (varies)
XR12 mixer (for acoustic instruments)
Korg rack tuner
Furman power conditioner

MIDI floor controller

2xDXR12 monitors

If I can figure out how to make the Axe Fx work for me, I can drop the size and weight by about 2/3. I could lose the head, the Torpedo, the XR12, the rack FX unit, and maybe the tuner. I'd love to replace the Bogner pedal and MIDI controller with a single board....not sure if the FC-12 can do it.
 
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FullThrottle64 said:
PC Mapping appear to be able to select a preset/scene combination.

Is it possible to use MIDI PC commands to also select a channel for a given block, or can this only be done with CCs? If only with CCs, how do I assign a CC# to a given block? Are those assigned CC#s global, or do they change per preset?

I've read through the MIDI portions of the manual, and some of it has become clearer, but.....?

[The reason I ask is that I am wondering whether I could use my existing MIDI board to control an Axe-FX III, or whether I need to budget for a FC-12 or other controller in the initial purchase.]
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I would advice to buy the fc12 or 6 if you can afford it. I did and its extremely flexible in use compared to my midi footcontroller (mlc fx25 + 9 button extension). The only thing which comes close I think, is the Mastermind 22 but for twice the price. There's only one thing my midi-fc and the mastermind have and fc12 not - yet, a wish waiting for to be implemented (please, please @FractalAudio) - and that's set / songlist mode. But even without I wouldn't ever change back to the fx25. So I support FAS' hawking their FC12 (though I don't know exactly what 'hawking' means, but I get the drift).
Edit: and don't forget the total integration with the AF3 unit - super easy and facilitating.
 
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Reaper said:
I would advice to buy the fc12 or 6 if you can afford it. I did and its extremely flexible in use compared to my midi footcontroller (mlc fx25 + 9 button extension). The only thing which comes close I think, is the Mastermind 22 but for twice the price. There's only one thing my midi-fc and the mastermind have and fc12 not - yet, a wish waiting for to be implemented (please, please @FractalAudio) - and that's set / songlist mode. But even without I wouldn't ever change back to the fx25. So I support FAS' hawking their FC12 (though I don't know exactly what 'hawking' means, but I get the drift).
Edit: and don't forget the total integration with the AF3 unit - super easy and facilitating.
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I get that it's integrated smoothly into the Axe FX III system. However, if you read through the thread, I think you'll find that I have one very clear requirement for my use case that the FC-12 won't do, but that might be possible with a MIDI controller.
 
The FC-12 can probably achieve what you need, but you may need to change your way of thinking to make it happen.

I have 3 main layouts that I flick between: Effects, Channels, and Scenes. While using the old Axe II with MFC-101 I was kind of Preset, Scene and Effects based, however the Axe FX III has liberated "Channels" by having 4 of them that can be any amp in the arsenal (or the same one with different settings). So the FC-12 probably can do what you want in terms of keeping all the effects the same while you change channels for the amp, but if you use scenes to do the same thing, you may end up with an undesired effects chain. I tend to flick between the Effects and Channels layouts to get what I need just now, but all layouts are easy to edit, so if I need to change amp channels in an effects layout, or vice versa, it's pretty straight forward to make that happen. Scenes were always powerful, but with separate (or combined) Effects and Channels switches available in any of the single layouts, they are of less use to me now.

Liam
 
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