Studio monitors upgrade advice

[vangrieg]

Found the only Hedd type 07 in my country for sale lol. It's out of my budget but I may give it a try.

I'm actually interested in this claim as what seems to be the best in budget for me is the A7V which has built-in DSP. Should I just go with a cheaper A7X?
My use is mainly playing through the monitors and less mixing.

DSPs don’t just add latency, they can flatten the frequency response at the expense of time domain distortion, so you get great measurement but weird sound. Inflated low end with ported designs also causes issues.

That being said, since you’re mainly playing, not mixing, my opinion is don’t worry too much about all that, just get the largest speakers for the budget and call it a day. My personal best experience for playing to backing tracks was with a pair of Presonus Eris 8s and a subwoofer. Probably all three will cost less than a pair of those Adams. Granted, those Presonus speakers are “studio monitors” only in name, but for playing they are more than sufficient, IMO, and quite fun to play through.

 

[vangrieg]

Have you all see this. Kinda got me interested in them.

I’ve seen a ton of glaring reviews for IK Multimedia iLoud Micros which looked very similar to this one.

I have a pair of Micros. They sound like crappy little speakers they are. There are no miracles.

Now, it doesn’t mean they are useless. You can surely do a kitchen jam with them, no doubt. You can also do audio editing with them. I use them for zoom calls all the time lol. But some of these reviews create a false impression that they are somehow better than the size suggests. They are not. Yes they are loud, but when they are loud they also start compressing a lot. Which is fine for making noises and having some fun but again, don’t expect miracles.

Maybe these Nux ones are somehow much better than the original but I doubt it. You can’t overcome the limitations of physics. That said, I think if these Nux ones were available when I needed tiny speakers, I wouldn’t even look at iLoud Micros. For the price, they can’t be too bad.

 

[eric12]

DSPs don’t just add latency, they can flatten the frequency response at the expense of time domain distortion, so you get great measurement but weird sound. Inflated low end with ported designs also causes issues.

I'm not fully understand the technical terms, but can't I just turn off the the dsp correction to avoid the issues with the frequency response?
From what you're saying I guess I would be better with the A7X than the A7V of the Hedd 07.

That being said, since you’re mainly playing, not mixing, my opinion is don’t worry too much about all that, just get the largest speakers for the budget and call it a day. My personal best experience for playing to backing tracks was with a pair of Presonus Eris 8s and a subwoofer. Probably all three will cost less than a pair of those Adams. Granted, those Presonus speakers are “studio monitors” only in name, but for playing they are more than sufficient, IMO, and quite fun to play through.

I still need it for mixing too, and not interested in sub yet(going out from the Axe fx or QC I just got stereo).
So I'm looking for a replacement that will be at least as good as the Kali for mixing(hopefully better) and better for playing.

 

[vangrieg]

can't I just turn off the the dsp correction

Typically no you cannot. I don’t know how dsp works in those particular speakers, but I don’t think there are any speakers that would have a ”dsp off” button.

as good as the Kali for mixing(hopefully better) and better for playing.

What makes you think these Adams will be better than Kalis? Why do you think you need to change?

 

[vangrieg]

not interested in sub

I just mentioned the sub because I found that it made my experience much better, and there’s a reason why people choose speakers that aren’t surgically precise for playing.

I had a pair of monitors that were much better than the Presonus were but rarely used them for playing, while they were much better for mixing in my experience.

 

[eric12]

Typically no you cannot. I don’t know how dsp works in those particular speakers, but I don’t think there are any speakers that would have a ”dsp off” button.

What makes you think these Adams will be better than Kalis? Why do you think you need to change?

My Kali has a defect in one of them(which I tried to fix, but couldn't do it or find someone who can), and when I bought them I was "under budget" and still know nothing about mixing. I didn't even had a modeler and playing mainly using an amp.
These days I play almost always from the QC/Axe FX and can afford much better monitors, so I thought it would be a better idea to sell my pair cheap and get better monitors(another option is getting the Kali again, which will cost like used A7X, and these days I can effort even more expensive options).

 

[vangrieg]

get better monitors

Good but a higher price doesn’t mean they will be better for you. I’m not saying the Adams are bad (although I never liked them, yet a lot of people do, so who knows), but hopefully you know what you’re looking for and that those Adams have it.

 

[eric12]

Good but a higher price doesn’t mean they will be better for you. I’m not saying the Adams are bad (although I never liked them, yet a lot of people do, so who knows), but hopefully you know what you’re looking for and that those Adams have it.

That's part of why I opened the thread . I guess better(and of course - it doesn't have to be pricier, but I guess there is some correlation) monitors would have better stereo imaging, more detailed high end or tighter low end. I guess I'm not after a specific improvement, but as the "opportunity" came and my Kali need to be replaced, I wonder what may be a better option.

 

[vangrieg]

wonder what may be a better option.

You’ll get as many opinions as there are monitor models if you wait long enough. Just about any pair of speakers will have users who love them (and some who hate).

Try to listen to them yourself.

 

[eric12]

You’ll get as many opinions as there are monitor models if you wait long enough. Just about any pair of speakers will have users who love them (and some who hate).

Try to listen to them yourself.

Yap you obviously right. I was just interested to hear some opinions to read about(like I just heard about the Hedd). The Adam got me interested since I know they are very popular among rock/metal players which are probably closer to my genre.

What got me interested is your point about the disadvantages of built-in DSP. Since I mainly care about playing it made me thinking most of the reviews are not exactly to my use case, and maybe analog monitors would be better for me comparing to newer versions like the A7V.

 

[henryrobinett]

Found the only Hedd type 07 in my country for sale lol. It's out of my budget but I may give it a try.

I'm actually interested in this claim as what seems to be the best in budget for me is the A7V which has built-in DSP. Should I just go with a cheaper A7X?
My use is mainly playing through the monitors and less mixing.

I don't agree with this admonishment against DSP. I haven't found anything close to audible latency with either of my two monitors that use DSP. And not my XiTone wedges either.

 

[trixdropd]

DSPs don’t just add latency

Yes they do. There’s not a single dsp solution that doesn’t

 

[vangrieg]

disadvantages of built-in DSP

Yes but they were introduced to try to overcome disadvantages of passive crossovers and bass ports and whatever else, those are also real. So there’s always some trade off. This is why I’m trying to say - try to listen to speakers if possible (I know it’s often difficult to do). And by the way, if I’m not confusing them with some other speakers, Kalis have a DSP as well, that’s how they achieve good frequency response at the expense of bad phase performance.

I liked all Dynaudio speakers I listened to more than any other brand I experienced. But maybe it’s because of some deficiency in them that I just happen to enjoy.

I know they are very popular among rock/metal players which are probably closer to my genre.

These things surely have the bandwagon effect. But maybe just go and buy them and disregard all the technical mumbo jumbo if listening pre purchase isn’t an option.

My personal opinion - I’d just go with a cheaper option for playing (maybe Kali IN-8s with a sub), and something else for mixing later, maybe with a smaller woofer. Good monitoring for mixing requires much more than speakers anyway.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Use of DSP doesn't really imply anything about what they're doing with it. It could be purely to align the timing of the tweeter and driver, it could be correcting phase at the crossover(s). Some use DSP to do crossovers and have separate D/A for each driver. There's different filter types that can be used. Doing corrective EQ is just one use of DSP, but honestly, not a particularly good one (unless it's done manually and carefully).

automatic room correction will try to fix boundary interactions that cannot be improved with EQ, likewise with comb filtering which often happens when people put a desk directly in front of their speakers and ears. Applying EQ there just makes things worse.

 

[vangrieg]

Applying EQ there just makes things worse.

Yet a lot of people swear by it because room correction makes things sound “better” (disregarding the technical details that come with it), often make stereo separation better, etc etc etc.

So it all depends on how people use the speakers and what they expect from them, there are a lot of cases when speakers can be “bad” but people enjoy them a lot. And maybe most of this stuff doesn’t matter too much for just playing along some backing track at home - if it sounds good and brings joy, then it is in fact good, even though it would be hard to make a good mix, especially without a lot of experience.

Maybe there’s jus too much attention we all pay to presence or absence of DSP, where the bass port is located, types of twitters, whether the amplifier is class D or not, and so on.

 

[Alexis]

Oh I always thought it's better and now considering the A7V. I thought it's an advantage that I can use Sonarworks directly from the monitors instead of on the Mac.

beware that sonarworks has different modes. the one with the lowest latency is basically just an EQ but still adds 4-5ms. you can apply this eq directly to the axefx output eq and spare a lot of latency or use a dedicated analog EQ.
As soon as as you use phase correction, your going to have a huge addition of delay around 40-50, if applied systemwide it can even add up to 100ms.
Over the years I tried basically everything that is available as software and hardware room correction but it never satisfied me regarding latency and playing my guitar through it. It always cam down to either a well treated room, or at least a little treatment on the critical positions and some EQ within the global settings of Helix or AxeFx. Sonarworks I only use for playback of DAW or System but never for playing.

 

[eric12]

Bumping the thread, and some investigations.
I tend toward "non DSP" now, seems like the DSP isn't that important for me as I mainly use the monitors to play live, and it just another point of failure/pricy/the latency still isn't a positive addition ofc.

I saw that the new Hedd 07 A-Core just got to Sweetwater. It still fit somewhere around my budget after shipping + fees. How are they compared to the old A7X? It'll be much pricier than used A7X but ofc as new, so if in general they're "better" monitors that may be a good invesment.

I just know nothing about Hedd since I have no dealer in my county, but the internet seems to love them. In the 07 A-Core price I get get a pair of used Focal Shape Twin/Neumann kh 150.

 

[vangrieg]

the one with the lowest latency is basically just an EQ but still adds 4-5ms.

Are you sure about that? I don’t see any latency noticed by DAW in zero latency mode. Haven’t done an actual measurement myself though. Are you saying the plugin lies, reporting 0 and yet introducing latency?

you can apply this eq directly to the axefx output eq and spare a lot of latency or use a dedicated analog EQ.

That’s how I do it - basically run pink noise from the FM3, grab a phone app, see the spikes, correct with output eq, leaving the dips mostly alone as eq doesn’t help much with them anyway. There’s no need to go crazy accurate with this, IMO.

However, one benefit room correction has over this method is that it applies eq to each speaker separately, which helps a lot with stereo imaging if you can’t place your speakers properly (which is the correct way of dealing with it, of course). In software it can be dealt with, on the FMs/FX3 output EQ won’t help.

 

[eric12]

Im curious about this DSP and latency debate.

Even expensive monitors with built-in DSP has around 1.5ms DSP.
Obviously, 1.5ms is not bad at all, but given that we play through modeler that may already add some latency, this things add up.
The latest VC update was improved to a point it's add somewhere around 3ms-4ms(I assume), and users still reporting some latency there. So saving ~1.5ms seems like a no brainer.