Struggling with my FM3……..help

[Ron_R]

My recommendation stays the same. Unless he has the cash for 2 "better" frfrs with 12" speakers. 5" monitors, and headphones should be the first clue in this mystery. lol

My recommendation stays the same. Unless he has the cash for 2 "better" frfrs with 12" speakers. 5" monitors, and headphones should be the first clue in this mystery. "Where's the beef?" LOL..

I ran an Axe Fx II through 5" Studio monitors for a decade, and now run an FM3 through those same 5" Studio monitors. Sounds glorious. Not sure what you're going on about.

 

[Ron_R]

@drnat

Sorry you're having so much trouble getting some tones you really like. With your guitar, I'd check out Leon Todd's YT channel and the presets he makes. He gets the tones you're looking for with a similar guitar. It's really too bad I don't live across the pond, LOL. I'd love to help you in person.

One thing, too, is there are so many amps in the FM3 that can do what you want, perhaps try out different ones. To me, the Mesa Mark Amps in the Fractal units are insanely good and can do anything you need them to do. You do have to know how to tweak them, though. Leon Todd is a master with those. And his EQ cuts on the Cab blocks help a lot, too. Also check out Mark Day's presets in the Factory Presets. There's one that has a lot of effects on it, but I'd turn them all off and go from there. I think it's lower down in the scenes menu.

Something I just thought of. Are you added noise gates or compression blocks? If not adjusted correctly, they can cause a very weird "digitally" sound. Something to check for.

 

[RobbyDeeMusic]

Maybe a pair of small monitors? I know headphones can be made to sound good but I don't think there is any way to get them to sound as good as a good pair of monitors or FRFR speakers. You would be able to have them at conversation volume.

Maybe a pair of small monitors? I know headphones can be made to sound good but I don't think there is any way to get them to sound as good as a good pair of monitors or FRFR speakers. You would be able to have them at conversation volume.

The Genelecs he already has are pretty small... only a 3" woofer. That's not much on the bottom end. He will need to compensate for that with his hearing and/or add a subwoofer.

 

[Ron_R]

The Genelecs he already has are pretty small... only a 3" woofer. That's not much on the bottom end.

I wish I could have people come to my basement studio and hear what I do out of my M-Audio BX5a monitors. I've had people tell me it sound like that "amp in the room" business. Full, rich, sound. And also, professional studios use that size or 8" to do all their mixing in general. They can hear plenty of bottom end, top end and everything in between.

 

[RobbyDeeMusic]

I wish I could have people come to my basement studio and hear what I do out of my M-Audio BX5a monitors. I've had people tell me it sound like that "amp in the room" business. Full, rich, sound. And also, professional studios use that size or 8" to do all their mixing in general. They can hear plenty of bottom end, top end and everything in between.

Me thinks big difference between 3" and 5" speaker depending on speaker design/specs and room placement.

 

[Ron_R]

Me thinks big difference between 3" and 5" speaker depending on speaker design/specs and room placement.

I'm not arguing that point. I'm saying that you can get killer tones out of the FM3 plugged into 5" Studio Monitors and that there is a reason why mixing engineers use studio monitors to mix records.

 

[RobbyDeeMusic]

I'm not arguing that point. I'm saying that you can get killer tones out of the FM3 plugged into 5" Studio Monitors and that there is a reason why mixing engineers use studio monitors to mix records.

Right on...

 

[la szum]

Thanks @Will Chen Its not necessarily a specific songs tone I’m after, but a useable tone I like. I have tried the Brit 800 #34 and find it really harsh and bright & not a pleasing sound, I know it may be what Slash has used, but what i hear with it isn’t pleasing to me, even though Slash may sound great with it….
However, I’ll try it with those settings & my LP with Alnico II pro pickups to see how it goes

Thanks though, appreciate the help!

Marshalls can be "harsh and bright and not pleasing." Those are some of the quintessential hallmarks of
Marshall amps, and why so many sought to have theirs modded back in the day (and why we have now so
many "improved" amps that are all derived from Marshall circuits ( Bogner, Friedman, Cameron, et al).

But man oh man, that god awful harshness that sounds like arse when solo'd is sublime in a mix. Not suggesting
you or anyone else doesn't know this. Just tossing it out once again, because it is so true.

 

[sprint]

I have 8" studio monitors (Yamaha HS8) with a 10" sub. I get my most satisfying and best sounds from this output (compared to a pair of 112 v30 cabs via SS amp, and FR cabs via SS amp that I also have and regularly try to tweak up to par with the studio monitors in terms of playing enjoyment in a small room). I know many use 5" monitors quite sucessfully but I can't get it out of my head that big must sound better even in a small space / might be worth a try for the OP.

 

[Will Chen]

I have 8" studio monitors (Yamaha HS8) with a 10" sub. I get my most satisfying and best sounds from this output (compared to a pair of 112 v30 cabs via SS amp, and FR cabs via SS amp that I also have and regularly try to tweak up to par with the studio monitors in terms of playing enjoyment in a small room). I know many use 5" monitors quite sucessfully but I can't get it out of my head that big must sound better even in a small space / might be worth a try for the OP.

I'm not going to get into size vs frequency response, but advising the OP throw more money at the issue is just going to exasperate his frustration. I'm not familiar with his monitors but if he's having issues with the monitors and headphones it's unlikely monitoring is the issue.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Hi Greg, how do I post the system settings?

Do a backup of just the system settings, AKA "System + Global + FC" in Fractal-Bot's "Receive > Begin" page. The file name will be something like "200903-183200-system+gb+fc.syx". Then attach that file to your original post.

 

[sprint]

I'm not going to get into size vs frequency response, but advising the OP throw more money at the issue is just going to exasperate his frustration. I'm not familiar with his monitors but if he's having issues with the monitors and headphones it's unlikely monitoring is the issue.

The OP seems astute enough to weigh / consider various comments put forward on his own, without pre-censorship.

 

[drnat]

Well, here is a preset I have done tonight, with some of the advice from this thread. It uses an OH M75 IR, but have replaced with a factory cab. Thoughts?
I an not sure I like the lead gain structure - lacking warmth and is almost too fine a break up if that makes sense?

Go easy on me please Thanks

 

[crossthestyx]

I ran an Axe Fx II through 5" Studio monitors for a decade, and now run an FM3 through those same 5" Studio monitors. Sounds glorious. Not sure what you're going on about.

I mix on 6" monitors, and play mp3's on them and it sounds real good. If I put that same sound through my 2-12" Headrushes it sounds phenomenal. But you're idea of good sound quality form your guitar, especially live, or in a band practice situation is playing through 5" speakers, I'm simply not gonna argue with you because your lost. " 5" studio monitors for a decade." Too funny. Get out of your bedroom dude.

 

[phillyred79]

Well, here is a preset I have done tonight, with some of the advice from this thread. It uses an OH M75 IR, but have replaced with a factory cab. Thoughts?
I an not sure I like the lead gain structure - lacking warmth and is almost too fine a break up if that makes sense?

Go easy on me please Thanks

Meh.. Not my cup of tea.. THERE, I said it.. I'm attaching my current "kitchen sink" preset.. I only use Scenes 1, 2, and 8 so forgive the sloppiness of its naming.. I use it through some crappy old "wireless" 900mhz Senn HD135s and a pair of Rokit 5s at home in my meager basement non-insulated "studio." I use strats/teles/LPs and dial in amp gains and the guitar's volume knob(s) to my moods. See if anything there strikes a chord and if not, well, I'M REAL G-DAMN SORRY!

 

[PRSfreak4]

Well, here is a preset I have done tonight, with some of the advice from this thread. It uses an OH M75 IR, but have replaced with a factory cab. Thoughts?
I an not sure I like the lead gain structure - lacking warmth and is almost too fine a break up if that makes sense?

Go easy on me please Thanks

First off, this is totally normal. My first 2 weeks of owning an Axe-FX II in 2014 had me regretting my investment, until I took the time to understand the different dynamics a lot of people here have mentioned (FRFR, Headphone, Fletcher-Munson, etc.).

For the broader group of better problem solvers than me:



Couple notes:

1. You do not need to route your signal chain like that. You can have all you AMP + CAB + VERB + FILTER + LOOPER + GEQ and outputs in the same line. The Send and Return function on the FM3 is sometimes used for more complex routing, but I digress (to each their own)
2. Yes, the amp config sounds flat. This could be from the cab combo with that amp. Check out the Axe Wiki for recommended cab combos and detail on amps (Friedman C45 Link)
3. Output 1 and Output 2, why is this routed this way? Explain what those go to for a better understanding and why you feel you need to EQ the output going to your headphones?
4. Try a new output routing. Do you have a Scarlett 2i2 or other USB to PC/Mac audio interface? You can use the headphone jack in that device to hear what it is going to sound like recorded, then use the interfaces outputs to route to your studio monitors.

Another recommendation is to go to a factory preset and use the Preset > Save to New Preset number feature. Save a preset you like from the factory to a <BLANK> end of the preset list number and start tweaking This gives you a baseline of how that model sounds for how Fractal tunes them to their ears. It's a way to re-baseline what you could be missing.

Just some thoughts to get you started.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I'm not going to get into size vs frequency response, but advising the OP throw more money at the issue is just going to exasperate his frustration. I'm not familiar with his monitors but if he's having issues with the monitors and headphones it's unlikely monitoring is the issue.

Agreed. I suspect it's the expectations and perhaps a lack of some critical listening experience.

In past lives I've run FOH, sold high-end stereo systems, played on stage for many years in different styles, and actively and closely listened to the sounds both on stage and FOH, on recordings, and coming directly from my amps. I'm a pretty picky bastard when I want a certain sound and have a relatively good idea how to get there. There's also that thing about the first 90% is a lot easier than the last 10%. In other words there's good, there's great, and then there's "What better things could I have done if I wasn't agonizing over that last 10%?" Here's my $0.02 on this long-winded thread and then I'm out:

• I now use headphones 99% of the time because we keep a quiet house, and I'm very happy with their sound. The modeler and various models and presets sound amazing, and there are very few, if any, presets that sound bad when I consider what their use or goal would be. The factory presets on the FM3, FM9 and FX3 are all excellent, especially when compared to the competition's example presets. I know what sort of EQ compensation is needed for the headphones and have PEQ and GEQ blocks I can drop in to flatten their sound if necessary, but by knowing what compensation is needed I can also adjust what I'm hearing in my head without needing to drop in the compensation; for instance, the DT-770s are bright, so I remind myself they are when I think my guitar sounds bright. Usually I add the blocks when I'm initially building a preset and adjusting the overall sound of the amp, and then take the block back out and let the rest of the sound flow through the preset without any major adjustments, and, when I plug into my EVs, I've always been very happy. From that I learned I can trust the system and models that Fractal put together.
• Headphones, like in-ear-monitors, cannot reinforce the guitar's sound like regular monitors or cabs can do, and that is an important part of the sound of an amplified guitar, that acoustic-coupling we get when at volume. Cliff talks about it in Headphones and IEM and it's good to understand what physics are in play because once we know what's happening then we can adjust the amp model or our expectations to compensate. It's possible to use acoustic drivers attached to the guitar to help provide that needed coupling but they're still not the same as a bunch of air from an excited speaker moving toward the guitar and shaking the strings. The lack of coupling and reinforcement is another thing we have to compensate for in our brains with headphones. (Though, some of the models seem to be sliding into feedback when I have my closed-back headphones on. It's pretty impressive when that happens.)
• Small studio monitors, large studio monitors and guitar cabs have to be sized to the room, and the desired listening volume and the distance from the monitor or speaker to the listener has to be accounted for. Small monitors at fairly low volume, a few feet away at ear level, can sound great, just as large monitors at much higher volume at 10 feet can sound great. A 12 watt 1x10 Princeton can sound killer in a small room and be killed by a 20 watt Deluxe 1x12 in a larger room, and a 50 watt Marshall 4x12 in a small room can sound like crap but stick it in a big room with bodies to absorb the sound and it's great. Their application and the volume and the room size and acoustics MUST be considered. Good sound is not usually something that "just happened" as a fluke.
• Good audio reproduction costs money. Cheap monitors or FRFR cabs are a waste of money because they you have to buy twice, the first time is to learn to spend the money the next time. There's a great pricing middle-ground where the difference in sound isn't very pronounced and it's more up to personal taste. Don't buy cheap, apply the previous bullet point and buy once and be done with it.
• It's really important to have a good knowledge of how a real, good quality, tube amp sounds at loud volume when your head is on-axis with the speaker. Once you know that, then you also know what a microphone is going to pick up, and have a realistic expectation for what sound you should get as output from FOH or the modeler. Guitar speakers are not dull-sounding thumping things when you're on-axis, they're bright, sometimes shrill, and you can hear details that you can't hear when standing with your head several feet above them and they're rattling your entrails or 'nads. Fractal's modelers do an amazing job of recreating exactly what the FOH or studio engineer want to hear, that on-axis sound. Some people want to argue that, but they need to put their heads on-axis to their speakers at stage volume because it's a whole different sound.
  
  I take all that information and when I'm using my headphones, use my brain to adjust what my ears are hearing, and figure out how the sound would fit in a live stage sound, and so far I have been very happy.

 

[crossthestyx]

Well, here is a preset I have done tonight, with some of the advice from this thread. It uses an OH M75 IR, but have replaced with a factory cab. Thoughts?
I an not sure I like the lead gain structure - lacking warmth and is almost too fine a break up if that makes sense?

Go easy on me please Thanks

You're pickups are also going to greatly effect how modern amp and old amp models deliver your sound and ultimately what you're trying to achieve. Don't expect the FM3 to more than 2/3's of what you are trying to do. If you're trying to play 60's or 70's and 80's rock and blues the LP is gonna be you're go too. If you're going for the Creed/Modern rock/metal-ish tone, your PRS's are gonna be you're go too. And you still might have to swap them out if you're trying to achieve a sound similar to what your favorite guitar hero uses. You should do some research on the pickups that are going to get you most closely to the sound you want. This also applies to amp models, speakers, chorus types, distortion types, flanger types, where your guitar hero has his eq in his chain, yada, yada, yada..

What youngsters don't understand about sound, and how it works on your favorite albums: Speakers are generally more important than the amp in a recording, especially if mic'd. I know this is contrary to popular belief, but consider this: Amps have evolved, and generally speaking, speakers have not. Why? Because they are tried and true. If you were to ask a old engineer that recorded albums in the 60's, 70's, and 80's which rig he would choose from if he had the latest greatest 100 watt amp with a 4x12 cab, with not so great speakers, and say a 50 watt descent tube combo amp with a great speaker + he only had 2 guitar pedals to work with, which would he use in a recording? He would very likely choose the rig with great speaker and descent head. And he would tell you that because: that can be worked with in a recording environment better than chasing crappy speakers. Now fast forward to today. You're monitors might work ok for mixing your demos on your computer. But playing though what is essentially a good car speaker is NEVER going to deliver a great guitar tone in your bedroom, or live. Same applies to headphones. It's just the nature of the beast. And just remember this: to anyone who wants to argue these points, I'm only right, if you think speakers matter. lol.. Hope this helps a bit.

 

[la szum]

First off, this is totally normal. My first 2 weeks of owning an Axe-FX II in 2014 had me regretting my investment, until I took the time to understand the different dynamics a lot of people here have mentioned (FRFR, Headphone, Fletcher-Munson, etc.).

For the broader group of better problem solvers than me:
View attachment 97333
View attachment 97334

Couple notes:

1. You do not need to route your signal chain like that. You can have all you AMP + CAB + VERB + FILTER + LOOPER + GEQ and outputs in the same line. The Send and Return function on the FM3 is sometimes used for more complex routing, but I digress (to each their own)
2. Yes, the amp config sounds flat. This could be from the cab combo with that amp. Check out the Axe Wiki for recommended cab combos and detail on amps (Friedman C45 Link)
3. Output 1 and Output 2, why is this routed this way? Explain what those go to for a better understanding and why you feel you need to EQ the output going to your headphones?
4. Try a new output routing. Do you have a Scarlett 2i2 or other USB to PC/Mac audio interface? You can use the headphone jack in that device to hear what it is going to sound like recorded, then use the interfaces outputs to route to your studio monitors.

Another recommendation is to go to a factory preset and use the Preset > Save to New Preset number feature. Save a preset you like from the factory to a <BLANK> end of the preset list number and start tweaking This gives you a baseline of how that model sounds for how Fractal tunes them to their ears. It's a way to re-baseline what you could be missing.

Just some thoughts to get you started.

Yeah.... excellent points. That is one convoluted signal path, for sure.

Also the Hi Cut in the Cab Block is calling me ponder why it is so severe. There has
to be something else that is generating a LOT of Treble and then the OP is compensating
by making a Hi Cut all the way down 4500 Hz to compensate.

 

[Will Chen]

I'd recommend...

1. Bypass the filter and EQ block.
2. Set the cab cuts fully open
3. Move the looper in front of the amp
4. Loop a passage and then audition IRs until you hear something closer to what you want (that IR sounds pretty boxy/flat with that amp IMHO).
5. Fine tune the cab cuts and amp EQ.
6. Now if things still don't sound perfect, add post EQ starting with all bands flat, if you want a little less body cut 250 or 500 by 1-2 DB, a little more cut boost 2K or 4K but 1-2 DB (I'd do this in the amp post EQ vs a separate block). If you have to make massive adjustments (outside a mesa amp where a 5 band post EQ is part of the sound), I'd suggest going back to reevaluate the amp settings or IR choice.