Strange tonal observations

[Thenewexhibit]

This might be an open ended question; if so, I apologize.

How are your tones sounding? I was scrolling through some different amps, and I feel like a lot of them have strange artifacts. For example, the Friedmans (HBE v2 in particular) at times almost sounds like I have an octave fuzz on when doing leads. It also sounds like it’s collapsing on itself on the neck pickup. I’m not using crazy amounts of gain; around 5-6, bass down to around 3.5, depth down to around 2.5. I remember the neck pickup sounding cool and tubular on a friedman, but it seems more muddy and “tone knob rolled off” sounding.

Also, the PVH Block letter really sounds like an octave fuzz at times on the high strings, on the high e and b strings around the 10-12th frets ish. No extreme settings going on, but sounds “cocked wah” ish / octave fuzz ish.

The other strange things I find are in the super reverbs for example; if you use an overdrive pedal, at the beginning of every note, the best way I can describe it is it sounds like a laser beam—a phasey laser beam. I’m looking at the head room of most amps, and they pretty much just max out almost all the time; even on the super reverbs, if I turn down the volume to like .5, it’s still almost out of headroom according to the meter. At that point it sounds like garbage though. Not sure if this has anything to do with it or not, but doesn’t remind me of my real super mic’d up and hit with an overdrive at all. Weird phasey laser beams on the attacks of the notes. It makes those super reverbs with an overdrive completely unusable for me because it sounds like the amp is shorting out at times; not collasping on itself, but shorting out. Almost as if when you put a tube amp into standby or turn it off and you’re still playing, it’s reminiscent of that character baked in. Once again, no extreme settings.

I also notice this on a lot of the Plexi amps; when playing on the G and D strings around the 3rd fret (pentatonic type stuff), there’s weird inconsistent phasey laser beam type sounds on the attack of each note. Sounds weird, I know, but it’s the only way I can describe it.

Has anyone noticed anything like this? I even tried a different guitar and different cable; same outcomes. I’m on version 2.01. I’m going to try this on my Axe FX iii to see if it’s the same (I think I’m still on 16.04 on the Axe iii). I really don’t think I’m just tripping. Stuff just sounds weird. And I haven’t noticed it until really deep diving with different amps, as I have a main preset I use 99% of the time.

EDIT: Just checked out my Axe Fx iii on version 16.04. While the characteristics of what I’m talking about with all of these amps is still there, it’s not NEARLY as apparent as with the FM9 on 2.01. Almost dynamically exhibiting these characteristics in a musical way. Also, all of the plexi amps are awesome!!! And really fun to play. Everything on my Axe iii feels more “bouncy” and responsive and giving if that makes sense. Even the Friedman seems clearer on the neck pickup. I don’t know if this is the way the modeling is now regarding the FM9 2.01 and Axe iii 19.06, but I do know the Axe iii on 16.04 doesn’t exhibit these strange qualities that I’m noticing on the FM9. I’ll check more tomorrow, and I’d like to update to the current firmware of 19.06 to see if things change. What has been your guys’ findings in these regards? It’s almost as if the amps feel less giving and stiffer on the FM9 with 2.01 vs my Axe Fx iii with 16.04. I’m also monitoring with headphones through both units. I don’t know if that has anything to do with it??

 

[sprint]

For best chance at getting some help - post example presets + samples

 

[Thenewexhibit]

For best chance at getting some help - post example presets + samples

I will try to get some presets available. I’m using York audio IRs, so I have to find something in the same ballpark as those sonically speaking. I have to figure out how to post clips too because I’ve never done that.

As far as more observations (still shooting in the dark, I know, but thought I’d still share), the notes sound as if they almost “meow” at the start of every note, mostly noticeable when palm muting single strings. It seems amps that get pushed into breakup or hitting the front end exhibit it, but if you get more headroom to help it go away, it just loses what makes it sound cool—until you hit the front end harder and then it meows in fizzy fashion on the starts of notes.

I’ll try to get some presets posted and or clips. I do notice it’s not as bad as on my Axe iii with the same settings. However, that’s running version 16.04.

 

[dicXjonesify]

Clips please. Sounds quite strange and no, I’m not experiencing that.

 

[unix-guy]

I am experiencing slightly darker and stiffer patches upgrading from V1.0 to 2.02. I went back and forth on a patch made from scratch and V1.0 was almost 2db louder and had a bit more top end. Not sure if anyone else has encountered this issue. I'd love to stick with 2.02 for the updated features, but it just doesn't sound as sweet to my ears.

If anyone has any suggestions on where to start tweaking in the amp block, aside from the obvious (volume up and add more top end eq), like did something or some setting fundamentally change in the firmware upgrade?

This is not really related to the OP...

There were major modeling changes between 1.0 and 2.02. Changes are expected...

Try resetting the Amp block and redialing your tones.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

This might be an open ended question; if so, I apologize.

How are your tones sounding? I was scrolling through some different amps, and I feel like a lot of them have strange artifacts. For example, the Friedmans (HBE v2 in particular) at times almost sounds like I have an octave fuzz on when doing leads. It also sounds like it’s collapsing on itself on the neck pickup. I’m not using crazy amounts of gain; around 5-6, bass down to around 3.5, depth down to around 2.5. I remember the neck pickup sounding cool and tubular on a friedman, but it seems more muddy and “tone knob rolled off” sounding.

Also, the PVH Block letter really sounds like an octave fuzz at times on the high strings, on the high e and b strings around the 10-12th frets ish. No extreme settings going on, but sounds “cocked wah” ish / octave fuzz ish.

The other strange things I find are in the super reverbs for example; if you use an overdrive pedal, at the beginning of every note, the best way I can describe it is it sounds like a laser beam—a phasey laser beam. I’m looking at the head room of most amps, and they pretty much just max out almost all the time; even on the super reverbs, if I turn down the volume to like .5, it’s still almost out of headroom according to the meter. At that point it sounds like garbage though. Not sure if this has anything to do with it or not, but doesn’t remind me of my real super mic’d up and hit with an overdrive at all. Weird phasey laser beams on the attacks of the notes. It makes those super reverbs with an overdrive completely unusable for me because it sounds like the amp is shorting out at times; not collasping on itself, but shorting out. Almost as if when you put a tube amp into standby or turn it off and you’re still playing, it’s reminiscent of that character baked in. Once again, no extreme settings.

I also notice this on a lot of the Plexi amps; when playing on the G and D strings around the 3rd fret (pentatonic type stuff), there’s weird inconsistent phasey laser beam type sounds on the attack of each note. Sounds weird, I know, but it’s the only way I can describe it.

Has anyone noticed anything like this? I even tried a different guitar and different cable; same outcomes. I’m on version 2.01. I’m going to try this on my Axe FX iii to see if it’s the same (I think I’m still on 16.04 on the Axe iii). I really don’t think I’m just tripping. Stuff just sounds weird. And I haven’t noticed it until really deep diving with different amps, as I have a main preset I use 99% of the time.

EDIT: Just checked out my Axe Fx iii on version 16.04. While the characteristics of what I’m talking about with all of these amps is still there, it’s not NEARLY as apparent as with the FM9 on 2.01. Almost dynamically exhibiting these characteristics in a musical way. Also, all of the plexi amps are awesome!!! And really fun to play. Everything on my Axe iii feels more “bouncy” and responsive and giving if that makes sense. Even the Friedman seems clearer on the neck pickup. I don’t know if this is the way the modeling is now regarding the FM9 2.01 and Axe iii 19.06, but I do know the Axe iii on 16.04 doesn’t exhibit these strange qualities that I’m noticing on the FM9. I’ll check more tomorrow, and I’d like to update to the current firmware of 19.06 to see if things change. What has been your guys’ findings in these regards? It’s almost as if the amps feel less giving and stiffer on the FM9 with 2.01 vs my Axe Fx iii with 16.04. I’m also monitoring with headphones through both units. I don’t know if that has anything to do with it??

As said before, we need example presets and sound clips would help. Terms like "weird phasey laser beam type sounds" don't tell us much.

Fractal doesn't guarantee that models "sound good". They do guarantee that their models are as accurate to their reference amplifier as is possible, and they're SO close it's difficult to tell the difference. What that means is, if you're hearing it in a preset, odds are really good the original amplifier would do it too. (Fractal tests this stuff closely.)

It's very likely what you're hearing is either ghost notes, or some other form of harmonic distortion. And, again, those occur in the original amps, but the good thing is, you can get rid of, or greatly reduce, them by adjusting some parameters.

FM9 v2.01 firmware is much more accurate than FX3 16.04, so again, it's closer to the real amps than 16.04.

You're monitoring with headphones… are you using a GEQ or PEQ block to help flatten their response? Are you listening at a high-enough volume so the Fletcher-Munson effect isn't in the way?

Do you have an expression pedal connected? What assignment did you give it? Many factory presets use the wah, and it will auto-engage if it's not toe-up/heel-down. That'll make a preset sound bad very quickly unless you're aware of what's happening.

Have you adjusted global EQ or other global settings?

 

[TSJMajesty]

I have a question about what you're hearing, because I'm having an issue that I'm trying to determine if it's something on my end or not. I posted a thread about not liking my headphones, thinking they were the cause, but now I don't believe that to be the case.

Using a preset in which it's audible, if you just pick a single note, does this "fizz" you mentioned happen right at the attack of the note, and die off pretty much right away, and sound like it's not really part of the actual note?

Mine is an Axe III, and I first started noticing it when I got my headphones. I read many threads, and added an EQ correction curve, but since it never really went away, I just figured it's a characteristic of my headphones. Then, it really started to annoy me because I can't seem to get the tones in the Petrucci Rig preset to sound nearly as articulate as say in Cooper's videos. But when listening to isolated guitars, or Cooper's videos thru those same headphones, or even music, they are crystal clear. Plus, I hear the same thing going through my real amp, or using different guitars, cords, even fresh batteries. I even hear it on presets that are supposed to be clean tones. I even tried using Input & Output 2. And I have my Global Gain settings quite low. And I also did all the recommended cab cuts I found in one of Leon's videos specifically about using headphones.

Again, I hear it only on the initial attack, it's NOT string buzz, it fades out almost immediately (but really muddies any attempt at practicing fast 3-note-per-string runs), and sounds like some type of "fizz/buzz" that doesn't seem to be part of the actual tone. Does that seem similar to what you're noticing?

 

[Thenewexhibit]

As said before, we need example presets and sound clips would help. Terms like "weird phasey laser beam type sounds" don't tell us much.

Fractal doesn't guarantee that models "sound good". They do guarantee that their models are as accurate to their reference amplifier as is possible, and they're SO close it's difficult to tell the difference. What that means is, if you're hearing it in a preset, odds are really good the original amplifier would do it too. (Fractal tests this stuff closely.)

It's very likely what you're hearing is either ghost notes, or some other form of harmonic distortion. And, again, those occur in the original amps, but the good thing is, you can get rid of, or greatly reduce, them by adjusting some parameters.

FM9 v2.01 firmware is much more accurate than FX3 16.04, so again, it's closer to the real amps than 16.04.

You're monitoring with headphones… are you using a GEQ or PEQ block to help flatten their response? Are you listening at a high-enough volume so the Fletcher-Munson effect isn't in the way?

Do you have an expression pedal connected? What assignment did you give it? Many factory presets use the wah, and it will auto-engage if it's not toe-up/heel-down. That'll make a preset sound bad very quickly unless you're aware of what's happening.

Have you adjusted global EQ or other global settings?

I appreciate the reply! I do apologize to everyone as well; it wasn’t my intent to leave such an open ended admittedly vague observation. I am not too familiar with how to post clips, and haven’t been able to make presets yet, as things got a little busy, and the Cab IRs I’m using are third party York, so I have to find something that is similar to be able to share.

However, what TSJMajesty speaks of is pretty darn accurate to what I’m experiencing. Not to muddy the waters even more, but very accurate to what I’m hearing.

 

[Thenewexhibit]

I have a question about what you're hearing, because I'm having an issue that I'm trying to determine if it's something on my end or not. I posted a thread about not liking my headphones, thinking they were the cause, but now I don't believe that to be the case.

Using a preset in which it's audible, if you just pick a single note, does this "fizz" you mentioned happen right at the attack of the note, and die off pretty much right away, and sound like it's not really part of the actual note?

Mine is an Axe III, and I first started noticing it when I got my headphones. I read many threads, and added an EQ correction curve, but since it never really went away, I just figured it's a characteristic of my headphones. Then, it really started to annoy me because I can't seem to get the tones in the Petrucci Rig preset to sound nearly as articulate as say in Cooper's videos. But when listening to isolated guitars, or Cooper's videos thru those same headphones, or even music, they are crystal clear. Plus, I hear the same thing going through my real amp, or using different guitars, cords, even fresh batteries. I even hear it on presets that are supposed to be clean tones. I even tried using Input & Output 2. And I have my Global Gain settings quite low. And I also did all the recommended cab cuts I found in one of Leon's videos specifically about using headphones.

Again, I hear it only on the initial attack, it's NOT string buzz, it fades out almost immediately (but really muddies any attempt at practicing fast 3-note-per-string runs), and sounds like some type of "fizz/buzz" that doesn't seem to be part of the actual tone. Does that seem similar to what you're noticing?

Honestly, this is pretty darn spot on to what I am hearing. It’s literally on the initial attack of most notes, mostly noticeable on the D and G strings 3rd fret to middle neck ish, but generally there. On my Axe iii 16.04, it’s there, but slightly part of the sound in a way that it doesn’t draw attention to itself. On 2.01 of the FM9, it seems like a disconnected fizz/buzz (which I say sounds like a “beeow” on the front end attack of every note), but almost independent of the overall sound.

It only seems to become more prevalent when the amp is getting pushed hard; wether turning up the gain, or when stacking drives.

I don’t mean to muddy up the waters for everyone so I apologize for leaving this open ended. I really meant to make presets to share, and clips (gotta figure out how you share them), but I didn’t have time yet, and I’m using third party IRs, so I have to find similar IRs, or reference the one I’m using so people hear the same exact thing. I just wanted to see if anyone noticed something similar.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Honestly, this is pretty darn spot on to what I am hearing. It’s literally on the initial attack of most notes, mostly noticeable on the D and G strings 3rd fret to middle neck ish, but generally there. On my Axe iii 16.04, it’s there, but slightly part of the sound in a way that it doesn’t draw attention to itself. On 2.01 of the FM9, it seems like a disconnected fizz/buzz (which I say sounds like a “beeow” on the front end attack of every note), but almost independent of the overall sound.

It only seems to become more prevalent when the amp is getting pushed hard; wether turning up the gain, or when stacking drives.

I don’t mean to muddy up the waters for everyone so I apologize for leaving this open ended. I really meant to make presets to share, and clips (gotta figure out how you share them), but I didn’t have time yet, and I’m using third party IRs, so I have to find similar IRs, or reference the one I’m using so people hear the same exact thing. I just wanted to see if anyone noticed something similar.

Good to know it's not just me.

Like I said, I've been aware of it for quite some time (but chalked it up to other factors until it got so annoying I started trying the various suggestions to mitigate it, which haven't truly worked), but recently when working on a certain 16th-note triplet run that starts out on the B on the low E string, its been driving me crazy. So mine is more prominent on the low strings.
Whether playing through headphones, or through a real amp, I just cannot dial in a tight, articulate, high-gain tone.

My favorite tone is Petrucci's, and I'm trying to learn some of his riffs. Have the same guitar (2, in fact, but it doesn't matter which one I use), but when I listen to Cooper playing that same preset, using his Majesty, I can clearly hear his notes are much tighter. And no, I can't play any of those runs @ 130 bpm, but I can do a few at say, 90 bpm, and keep my technique even and consistent, so it's not b/c of sloppy playing.

And from where I'm sitting, there's no need to share a preset. Pull up the factory Petrucci Rig, and just play a few single notes on the low E or A string, (I can hear it on any note; it's just easiest to hear on the lower ones), and listen very carefully to the attack of the note. And for the sake of limiting variables, it'd probably help if you have some type of medium-to-high output PU's, or even a JP guitar.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Whether playing through headphones, or through a real amp, I just cannot dial in a tight, articulate, high-gain tone.

Acoustic-coupling is important for getting a realistic sound, and headphones cannot do that. The guitar being vibrated by the sound coming from the speakers actually changes the frequency response of the guitar and its gain. The same is true if the speakers are not moving a lot of air because they’re not loud enough.

"It's lack of acoustic reinforcement. I did a test a few years ago and I don't remember the actual numbers but having a speaker aimed at the guitar adds many dBs of power to the lower mids coming out of the guitar. IOW, if you measure the spectrum of the signal coming out of a guitar alone and then compare that to the signal coming out with a cab or monitor in proximity at a reasonable volume there are a LOT more lower mids with the speaker present. This results in a "thin" sound without the speaker." [8]

"The problem with headphones is that there is no acoustic reinforcement of the guitar. There is zero coupling between the speakers (inside the headphones) and the guitar. Without that coupling, which is a type of positive feedback, the sound is lifeless, thin and harsh. When your heroes recorded their guitar parts that weren't using headphones. On "Appetite for Destruction" Slash recorded his guitar parts in the control room. To get even more coupling into the guitar a combo amp was in the control room with him pointed at the guitar. A volume pedal allowed him to adjust the volume of the combo amp so he could control the coupling. With the volume pedal all the way up he could get controlled feedback. I've actually done tests comparing the spectrum out of the guitar when there is no coupling (i.e. monitors turned off) and with typical coupling (monitors loud or using a conventional cab). The boost in the low midrange is significant. I forget the actual numbers but it was at least several dB." [9]

"I did some studies years ago and having a speaker in proximity to the guitar actually changes the final tone considerably. I compared the frequency response with the amp in isolation to the frequency response with the amp in proximity and measured several dB difference in the lows and mids. It was clearly audible when the recordings were played back."

In addition, the sound has to be over 90 dB to help nullify the Fletcher-Munson effect, if it’s not then our perception of the sound is affected. That’s not tied to speakers or headphones, it’s inside our brain.

Put the two together and it’s especially important to use real speakers loud, or know how to compensate for the difference.

Tips for improving sound quality through headphones:

• use FullRes IRs in the Cab block or IR Player block (firmware 17 or later for the Axe-Fx III)
• use a far-field Impulse responses (IR)
• increase Proximity in the Cab block
• increase Room Level in the Cab block
• select the Ambience type in the Reverb block
• always use a stereo output signal
• add the Enhancer block to presets, or add Micro Delay / Distance in the Cab block
• increase De-Phase / Smoothing in the Cab block
• use Gain Enhancer in the Amp block

Those help make a preset more pleasant with headphone use only.

If the preset is not intended to be used exclusively with headphones then we shouldn’t make those changes to the preset and, instead, we have to mentally adjust what we’re hearing with our knowledge of acoustic-coupling and Fletcher-Munson. That takes experience playing and listening critically to amps and guitars loud and how they sound when quieter so we have a basis for our mental gymnastics. People who don’t have those experiences are at a disadvantage because they don’t know the differences in the sounds.

And from where I'm sitting, there's no need to share a preset. Pull up the factory Petrucci Rig, and just play a few single notes on the low E or A string, (I can hear it on any note; it's just easiest to hear on the lower ones), and listen very carefully to the attack of the note.

It’s not a frivolous request, it’s a diagnostic tool. Sharing a specific preset to use when comparing sound and diagnosing problems speeds up the process. It helps everyone involved work from the same point, like everyone using the same sheet music. And if the specific preset is not shared we have to assume that the named preset is identical to our copy of it, which is not necessarily a safe assumption, hence the requests.

And for the sake of limiting variables, it'd probably help if you have some type of medium-to-high output PU's, or even a JP guitar.

That’s not going to make nearly as much difference as using a FRFR or studio monitors, or a solid state power amp and guitar cabinet, something that is reasonably neutral, at least more so than a stock guitar amp, and with the volume turned up. Even a bright Strat or Tele with 50s or 60s-style pickups into a Marshall amp model sounds huge when the volume is turned up. Turn it down and they’re thin and brittle, even a Les Paul will sound that way too.

 

[dejoblue]

This is caused, or at least mitigated by the Bias Excursion, most noticeable in the power amp, but also the preamp and phase inverter (PI).

If you take the default Plexi 100W preset and turn the Treble Drive down to 3 it mostly goes away. If you turn the Bias Excursion in the Pwr Tubes + CF section around or below 10% it also starts to go away.

Increasing Tube Hardness also makes it start to go away.

Running Normal Drive past 8 starts to hide it with bass, tubbyness, and fuzziness; this is why it is mostly hidden when you dime everything in an EVH style, but it is what also gives the sponginess. You can also hear this on all the amps, from Fender to Mesa to SLO.

Speaking of SLO; conversely, if you wanna add a lot of feel and sponginess to a SLO 100 crank up the Preamp, Power Amp and PI Bias Excursions to 200% and reduce the Preamp and Power Amp Tube Hardness to 0.

This is part of the phasey, "swoosh", "bloom" sound players appreciate about the Plexi and other amps.

There is also a healthy amount of ghost notes; it sounds like an ocataver pedal is on. You can most easily hear these ghost notes while playing up high, the 22nd or 24th fret of your low E string for example. Play a single note and let it ring out and you will hear a low D and also a higher note. (Aside: To me the higher note sounds non-harmonic, like aliasing, anyone know? Is the distortion cutting off the signal and reconstructing it, like a class B or D amp/tremolo? Anyways I digress.)

Anyways, welcome to the world of amp sims so realistic we get to learn all the weird stuff they do; virtually; talk about the Meta-verse! A lot of what those crazy sounding musicians talk about now makes a whole lot of sense. I can hear it too.

Cheers!

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I'd recommend reading through the Wiki's Amp Block page. There's a lot of information so you'll probably need to do it a few times, but it explains all sorts of inner details about the amps and how to adjust them. The Tricks section is good to remember.

The Power Type section covers ghost notes and how to get rid of them. I suspect they're a lot of what you're hearing.

 

[Darrin66]

Good to know it's not just me.

Like I said, I've been aware of it for quite some time (but chalked it up to other factors until it got so annoying I started trying the various suggestions to mitigate it, which haven't truly worked), but recently when working on a certain 16th-note triplet run that starts out on the B on the low E string, its been driving me crazy. So mine is more prominent on the low strings.
Whether playing through headphones, or through a real amp, I just cannot dial in a tight, articulate, high-gain tone.

My favorite tone is Petrucci's, and I'm trying to learn some of his riffs. Have the same guitar (2, in fact, but it doesn't matter which one I use), but when I listen to Cooper playing that same preset, using his Majesty, I can clearly hear his notes are much tighter. And no, I can't play any of those runs @ 130 bpm, but I can do a few at say, 90 bpm, and keep my technique even and consistent, so it's not b/c of sloppy playing.

And from where I'm sitting, there's no need to share a preset. Pull up the factory Petrucci Rig, and just play a few single notes on the low E or A string, (I can hear it on any note; it's just easiest to hear on the lower ones), and listen very carefully to the attack of the note. And for the sake of limiting variables, it'd probably help if you have some type of medium-to-high output PU's, or even a JP guitar.

I'm getting this too. I've had my FX3 for a month and I've been panicking at least once daily, thinking there's something wrong with my unit, then I tell myself it's probably my lack of skill at programming presets. I drafted up a post, but haven't put it on the forum yet as I wanted to be thorough and search around to see if there was already a discussion. That lead me here. I've been reading a lot of material but I just discovered the Amp Block writeup on the Fractal Wiki. I have a lot to dig into before I can post/comment and possibly help, but I'm determined to figure this out as I think the FX3 is nothing short of amazing. I bought one of Austinbuddy's preset packs last night and I'm going to compare what I get with the Cooper Carter video. Man, I'll be devastated if I can't get this to work. I don't care about the money, I just want those tones. Thankfully it seems like there are a lot of knowledgeable and helpful people this forum. If I figure anything out, I'll be back to help.

 

[TSJMajesty]

I'm getting this too. I've had my FX3 for a month and I've been panicking at least once daily, thinking there's something wrong with my unit, then I tell myself it's probably my lack of skill at programming presets. I drafted up a post, but haven't put it on the forum yet as I wanted to be thorough and search around to see if there was already a discussion. That lead me here. I've been reading a lot of material but I just discovered the Amp Block writeup on the Fractal Wiki. I have a lot to dig into before I can post/comment and possibly help, but I'm determined to figure this out as I think the FX3 is nothing short of amazing. I bought one of Austinbuddy's preset packs last night and I'm going to compare what I get with the Cooper Carter video. Man, I'll be devastated if I can't get this to work. I don't care about the money, I just want those tones. Thankfully it seems like there are a lot of knowledgeable and helpful people this forum. If I figure anything out, I'll be back to help.

Lol. We're walking a similar path bud! I too thought something may be wrong with my unit, but then figured it's got to be the way I'm monitoring things. I also wrote a post, but have since deleted it, and was amazed when reading the Wiki to see it refer to the "fizz" like it seems to float above the tone. I was like, "YES! Exactly like that."

But. I've since bought a set of ATH-M50x headphones which made a huge difference, and on the amp side of things, I'm thinking as long as I run the Axe thru a Mesa 20/20 (with questionable tubes; I bought it used) and 2 4x12 Recto cabs, it just ain't gonna sound like it's supposed to. To me it sounded just like clipping, and was so bad, most all the clean factory presets were unusable. But these new headphones made such a huge difference!! Here's a post I mad about them.

What are you listening through?

 

[Darrin66]

Lol. We're walking a similar path bud! I too thought something may be wrong with my unit, but then figured it's got to be the way I'm monitoring things. I also wrote a post, but have since deleted it, and was amazed when reading the Wiki to see it refer to the "fizz" like it seems to float above the tone. I was like, "YES! Exactly like that."

But. I've since bought a set of ATH-M50x headphones which made a huge difference, and on the amp side of things, I'm thinking as long as I run the Axe thru a Mesa 20/20 (with questionable tubes; I bought it used) and 2 4x12 Recto cabs, it just ain't gonna sound like it's supposed to. To me it sounded just like clipping, and was so bad, most all the clean factory presets were unusable. But these new headphones made such a huge difference!! Here's a post I mad about them.

What are you listening through?

Yes, I'll walk it as long as it all works in the end, lol! I'll go check out your post. I was using a very cheap set of headphones. Then I bought an EV ZLX-12BT. I figured this would be a decent choice, but I am playing at a low volume. I switched over to the FX3 because of tinnitus. I can crank it for a bit to see if it improves but I suspect I'll need to play around with amp parameters and I really need to just keep digging in and learning how to set up these virtual amps.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Then I bought an EV ZLX-12BT. I figured this would be a decent choice, but I am playing at a low volume.

Unfortunately, low volume is at odds with getting a good guitar sound because of the lack of acoustic-coupling and the Fletcher-Munson effect.

The actual sound of the guitar pickup changes as the output volume increases because the sound hitting the body and strings increases mids making the guitar sound fatter, and increasing gain of the overall system. You can easily hear that if you have a hollow or semi-hollow body guitar and start raising the volume to the point where you feel the guitar’s body vibrating as you play. The sound will become thicker and probably you will want to adjust the tone controls to compensate. A solid body tends to not react as strongly to the sound waves but we still can tell when the strings start vibrating.

'The "Modelers Don't Clean Up with the Volume Knob" Myth' talks about this.

The Fletcher-Munson effect says our ears/brain don’t interpret the sound correctly until about 90 dB. Unless we do something to compensate, the sound will be thin. If we adjust the EQ, the sound will be wrong at stage volume. My tactic is I don’t mess with EQ unless I’m running comfortably loud.

https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fletcher-Munson

 

[Darrin66]

I totally agree with the FM curve/Volume thing, especially from a frequency point of view, I'm blue in the face telling guys that. I also get the close mic aspect of this system, from using IEM's by themselves with no room mic mixed in. I'm just getting a lot of fizz and I think I have something more than lack of volume going on, or that the EV is that bad even at low volume, due to the fact that I just bought the FX3 last month and I just don't know much past the very basics of programming it, even though I'm in the electronics industry and I've been building tube amps for almost 30 years. The knowledge from that world doesn't immediately translate to instant results with modelers. I found out from starting to use plugins seriously a few years back that the interface setup matters, a lot. I have a lot of suspicions as to what this could be and my guess is everything is adding up to conspire against me, basically a message to me to keep reading, learning, and posting here. I tend to try to snow plough my way through it as it's so much fun to hear all of the different amps and FX, but then I end up with something almost great, and I get discouraged by the fizz. So I hope to fine tune all of these factors accordingly and get the great tones that I know are in this unit. I did have one small success with an SRV preset that I made. I played around with the power supply parameters to make it stiffer and found that it took a lot of the fizz away. I'm hoping to take a little more away but I can live with what I have. Then I started tweaking an SLO preset to try to get some Gary Moore All Your Love tone, and along with the fizz I even had some fairly harsh intermodulation distortion on the Dm chord near the beginning of the solo, across the G,B & E strings at the 10th fret. That's when it hit me that at least that part of my woes is not due to digital/input/interface setting issues.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I'm in the electronics industry and I've been building tube amps for almost 30 years. The knowledge from that world doesn't immediately translate to instant results with modelers.

I think you'll find that it does, but you'll have to make some connections between different areas you might not have thought were associated.

I have a dad who's a pretty talented electronics engineer, with some team patents for very major, important, devices used in aviation. He got me started messing with electronics when I was a kid, and I'd build my own effects, and wire all my cables, study the amp circuits, etc. Then I started running FOH for many years in addition to playing guitar, plus was selling very high-end stereo equipment, was doing guitar repairs in a shop, had some good mentors who had recording studios, and read a sh*tload of articles, followed modeling technology from before Line 6 was around because of one of my recording engineer friends being involved in it, and then bounced off many different early modelers as they started to figure stuff out. When I got my first Helix Floor I was surprised its concepts were a mishmash of all those things I'd fiddled with over the years, and things started connecting. It only got more interesting when I switched to Fractal's products because they dwarf the "tweakability" of the other modelers out there. In no way am I an expert, I constantly read because I love a challenge and the thrill of the hunt, and I'm slowly working my way deeper and deeper into the Amp block, mostly because I'm trying to create a model of an amp I love that's not in the list of available models.

In the FAQ in the manuals for the FM3/FM9/FX3 is:

Q: Why all the technical terminology?
A: The language of the FM9 is for the most part the universal language of professional audio. This allows the FM9 to be used by casual and professional players, producers, engineers, and beyond. The terminology and concepts you will use and learn are accordingly not unique to the FM9. Understanding them will help you to master the craft of pro audio and to communicate with others. At the same time, the FM9 is easier than ever, with dedicated controls and a clear interface that doesn’t distract or disrupt the creative flow.

It's definitely a learning curve, but your background should let you ramp up to speed pretty quickly, especially when you dive into the deeper, more mysterious, controls in the various blocks.

Dig through Cliff's Tech Notes and the entries in the Wiki. There's a great amount of deeper information contained in them that'll help make those connections.

That's when it hit me that at least that part of my woes is not due to digital/input/interface setting issues.

I've started thinking that "digital" is a misnomer with the Fractals. I'm not sure I could tell the difference between my tube amps and the models when playing, especially if the amps were miked; probably that's because I've always used my amps tipped back so they point at my head, not my legs, so I'm hearing the real high-frequency response of the speakers. I also spend a lot of time using various headphones when I work with the modelers because we keep a quiet house, and I'm regularly impressed with how amazing the guitars sound, whether they're clean or screaming. I prefer using my modelers now, though carrying two FRFR cabs and guitars plus the modeler requires more work and time for setup than rolling in with one of my combo amps and plugging the guitar into it.

It's an exciting and fascinating time to be using the Fractals, especially given the increasing costs of buying real tubes.