Stereo Vs Mono For Live Performances

P

PSea

Experienced
Something occurred to me last night and I'd like a better understanding before I go and screw up a bunch of presets by making them stereo via the cab block.

I have 2 EV pcm-12mp speakers running out of Out2. The Out2 L goes to one speaker and the Out2 R goes to the other speaker. Out2 is set to copy Out1, so all my presets only show the Out1 block. I plan to use one EV as my backline and the other as my monitor. At some point in the future I may decide I don't need the monitor in front (small stages) and use both for backline but for the time being, this will be my setup.

So for the most part, the crowd in front of the stage will only be hearing the backline speaker. I'm also running stereo to FOH. I'm trying to wrap my head around how delays will work in this setup. For instance, If I use a Ping Pong delay that pans from L to R, the crowd in front of the stage will probably not hear one of the delays (the one hitting my monitor). They'll hear the delay originating from the backline speaker. But FOH will hear both of the delays L & R.

Is there a way to address this? How could I get my backline speaker (or backline and monitor) to project both delays L & R while FOH doesn't lose the stereo capabilities? Maybe I'm overthinking this. First gig w/ the FM9 coming at month's end. Not a lot of gigging experience so I'm a bit nervous...to say the least.

Any insights greatly appreciated.
 
Do they need to hear the ping pong clearly to understand the music? If not it’s fine.

Some will hear the monitor facing away from them as it bounces off the room as well.

Stereo sound doesn’t have to be the perfect center experience for every listener, in my opinion. Stereo is to provide width and a more intricate sound, so even if it’s not perfectly centered, they will hear some sort of difference compared to a mono signal. Those delay will “fill up the sound” even if it’s not panned for them.

This is different from say a movie or hard panning vocals that NEED to be heard to understand the music. For effects and width/depth type things, it can still work.
 
PSea said:
Something occurred to me last night and I'd like a better understanding before I go and screw up a bunch of presets by making them stereo via the cab block.

I have 2 EV pcm-12mp speakers running out of Out2. The Out2 L goes to one speaker and the Out2 R goes to the other speaker. Out2 is set to copy Out1, so all my presets only show the Out1 block. I plan to use one EV as my backline and the other as my monitor. At some point in the future I may decide I don't need the monitor in front (small stages) and use both for backline but for the time being, this will be my setup.

So for the most part, the crowd in front of the stage will only be hearing the backline speaker. I'm also running stereo to FOH. I'm trying to wrap my head around how delays will work in this setup. For instance, If I use a Ping Pong delay that pans from L to R, the crowd in front of the stage will probably not hear one of the delays (the one hitting my monitor). They'll hear the delay originating from the backline speaker. But FOH will hear both of the delays L & R.

Is there a way to address this? How could I get my backline speaker (or backline and monitor) to project both delays L & R while FOH doesn't lose the stereo capabilities? Maybe I'm overthinking this. First gig w/ the FM9 coming at month's end. Not a lot of gigging experience so I'm a bit nervous...to say the least.

Any insights greatly appreciated.
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Narrow the stereo width of the delays? That is, don't hard pan.
 
chris said:
Do they need to hear the ping pong clearly to understand the music? If not it’s fine.

Some will hear the monitor facing away from them as it bounces off the room as well.

Stereo sound doesn’t have to be the perfect center experience for every listener, in my opinion. Stereo is to provide width and a more intricate sound, so even if it’s not perfectly centered, they will hear some sort of difference compared to a mono signal. Those delay will “fill up the sound” even if it’s not panned for them.

This is different from say a movie or hard panning vocals that NEED to be heard to understand the music. For effects and width/depth type things, it can still work.
Click to expand...
true. fair point.
 
PSea said:
I don't believe I'm panning delays. I'm only panning the cabs. hmmm. the rabbit hole just got deeper. lol
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Well, stereo imaging is fun. Enjoy the decisions? :)

chris said:
Ping pong delays are specifically hard panned left and right.
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True, but the overall stereo image of the instrument need not cover the whole stage.

I keep my reverbs full stereo width, while keeping my core tone relatively tight, and if I'm doing ping pong, those go wide, just not all wide.

My ideal comes from seeing artists like Scofield and Frisell back in the day with a pair of amps. The amps were not at opposite sides of the stage. They sat stage right or stage left.

Somewhere along the line, with presets I suppose, it became common to just spread everything full width with drums and keyboards and whatnot. That can ironically make things sound smaller.
 
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PSea said:
How could I get my backline speaker (or backline and monitor) to project both delays L & R while FOH doesn't lose the stereo capabilities?
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Send Out1 stereo to FOH and set Out2 to sum L+R in the I/O settings (Setup page > Audio in FM9-Edit). Or just don't use ping pong style delays.

TBH I wouldn't bother running stereo if you're not monitoring with stereo IEMs where you can actually experience the benefits of the width created by two amps and cabs hard panned, stereo wet effects, and the enhancer block.
 
PSea said:
thanks for all the input, guys. much appreciated. one question. is the sum L+R option the one that can often result in phasing issues?
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Things in phase sum, things out of phase difference, so can result, yes? Often? Depends. It’s worth checking your signal in mono in most cases to avoid issues.
 
I am a longtime performing guitarist and have programmed hundreds, if not thousands, of rigs for other musicians. Unless you are performing on a production-level event with a dialed-in full PA with a dedicated FOH engineer who can handle and request it, you should run mono live.

In a recorded mix? Stereo ALL DAY and ALL NIGHT. But live? 99.9999^% mono.

Most sound guys in a given room need more patience to dial in a stereo mix; they want to get your signal in and go. Stereo is an indulgence live unless you have a dedicated sound guy who understands what he is doing. The PA system must be optimized to deliver it to as wide a swath of the audience as possible. Panning two guitarists slightly one way and another is one thing; to accommodate stereo guitar effects is entirely another. They don't need the hassle and, in most cases, will not take the time to do it. The room and PA system might not be able to deliver across the full audience width and depth.

Why? Most often, if you have panned effects, the ONLY people who will hear that correctly are in the center 'sweet spot' for any given system. Big or small. It is not optimal for anyone sitting up front, in the back, or on the sides. They will hear either side of the effect more than the other, a wash of both in the back or none of it if they are upfront without center fill (in that case, it is mono 99% of the time). Only those lucky enough to be in the middle, side to side and front to back, will experience it how you intend to.

The Solution. Run mono, and check your effects for any phase issues. Let's look at a ping-pong delay as an example. Make one delay slightly louder and a bit softer so they tuck together in mono. Does it matter that it's not wide? No, not really in the end. Now, EVERYONE, no matter where they sit, hears what you intend and has no issues.

Pro Tip. Don't piss off the sound guy. Could you make his job as easy as possible in as little time as necessary to get him rolling? Please have your presets leveled and your solo boost set (+4db to +6db if running direct), and ensure he knows all this in advance.
 
While as very well outlined above, the reasons for running in mono are multifold, I still encourage folks to play with stereo imaging. A constrained stereo image, as opposed to the typical factory preset hard-panned sound-guys-bane, is well worth exploring across applications. If a stereo image is constrained well and pan friendly, it's already close to mono. If the sound person can only handle mono, send them the summed lead as discussed. With care it's safer than a Red Ryder BB Gun and much more fun. ;-) Cheers all, D
 
Scott Peterson said:
I am a longtime performing guitarist and have programmed hundreds, if not thousands, of rigs for other musicians. Unless you are performing on a production-level event with a dialed-in full PA with a dedicated FOH engineer who can handle and request it, you should run mono live.

In a recorded mix? Stereo ALL DAY and ALL NIGHT. But live? 99.9999^% mono.

Most sound guys in a given room need more patience to dial in a stereo mix; they want to get your signal in and go. Stereo is an indulgence live unless you have a dedicated sound guy who understands what he is doing. The PA system must be optimized to deliver it to as wide a swath of the audience as possible. Panning two guitarists slightly one way and another is one thing; to accommodate stereo guitar effects is entirely another. They don't need the hassle and, in most cases, will not take the time to do it. The room and PA system might not be able to deliver across the full audience width and depth.

Why? Most often, if you have panned effects, the ONLY people who will hear that correctly are in the center 'sweet spot' for any given system. Big or small. It is not optimal for anyone sitting up front, in the back, or on the sides. They will hear either side of the effect more than the other, a wash of both in the back or none of it if they are upfront without center fill (in that case, it is mono 99% of the time). Only those lucky enough to be in the middle, side to side and front to back, will experience it how you intend to.

The Solution. Run mono, and check your effects for any phase issues. Let's look at a ping-pong delay as an example. Make one delay slightly louder and a bit softer so they tuck together in mono. Does it matter that it's not wide? No, not really in the end. Now, EVERYONE, no matter where they sit, hears what you intend and has no issues.

Pro Tip. Don't piss off the sound guy. Could you make his job as easy as possible in as little time as necessary to get him rolling? Please have your presets leveled and your solo boost set (+4db to +6db if running direct), and ensure he knows all this in advance.
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appreciate the wisdom. just to be clear, are you advocating only running the L output to FOH or still running both L & R to FOH but setting up my presets as mono?

if the latter, is there any benefit to using a stereo delay?
 
Scott Peterson said:
I am a longtime performing guitarist and have programmed hundreds, if not thousands, of rigs for other musicians. Unless you are performing on a production-level event with a dialed-in full PA with a dedicated FOH engineer who can handle and request it, you should run mono live.

In a recorded mix? Stereo ALL DAY and ALL NIGHT. But live? 99.9999^% mono.

Most sound guys in a given room need more patience to dial in a stereo mix; they want to get your signal in and go. Stereo is an indulgence live unless you have a dedicated sound guy who understands what he is doing. The PA system must be optimized to deliver it to as wide a swath of the audience as possible. Panning two guitarists slightly one way and another is one thing; to accommodate stereo guitar effects is entirely another. They don't need the hassle and, in most cases, will not take the time to do it. The room and PA system might not be able to deliver across the full audience width and depth.

Why? Most often, if you have panned effects, the ONLY people who will hear that correctly are in the center 'sweet spot' for any given system. Big or small. It is not optimal for anyone sitting up front, in the back, or on the sides. They will hear either side of the effect more than the other, a wash of both in the back or none of it if they are upfront without center fill (in that case, it is mono 99% of the time). Only those lucky enough to be in the middle, side to side and front to back, will experience it how you intend to.

The Solution. Run mono, and check your effects for any phase issues. Let's look at a ping-pong delay as an example. Make one delay slightly louder and a bit softer so they tuck together in mono. Does it matter that it's not wide? No, not really in the end. Now, EVERYONE, no matter where they sit, hears what you intend and has no issues.

Pro Tip. Don't piss off the sound guy. Could you make his job as easy as possible in as little time as necessary to get him rolling? Please have your presets leveled and your solo boost set (+4db to +6db if running direct), and ensure he knows all this in advance.
Click to expand...
^^^ This is the voice of a seasoned pro, and well stated. 100% in agreement with every word. Even when playing in clubs with (ostensibly) stereo PA systems, I give them a mono signal.
 
If I do my own sound, stereo. If it’s a new venue or a sound guy I don’t know, mono. Same Presets, same settings, I just make my presets so 2 signals or one signal sounds the same. 2 signals add some extra flavor, but the one has everything I need.
 
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