Split signal around the effect sometimes better?

U

Unicorn62

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Hello everyone

I have an Axe FX 2 XL (since January '17), where I now (finally;)) have realized it may in many cases be far better to put the effects (delay / reverb / chorus) in another path other than the main signal and make a split signal, one main signal out and one for the effects .. It gives, to my opinion, a more powerful maybe "stronger" louder volume without clip (which I had some problems with before) and it's far more easy to control effects from drowning the amplifier line/row in effect.
Because of the volume injecting (double signal), the effect have of course to be adjusted / tweekes carefully.
The main signal is, however, obviously stronger with this and have to be equalized around the deep frequencies.
But for me it seems to makes a far better volume control over the signal ..

How do you see at this subject..?
 

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The picture above is just a very simple example, I have presets with reverb, chorus and delay/ multi delay done in this way. But after all I'm very curious how you look at these way of signals..
 
Your example is like routing delay in series and adjusting mix to get the same delay volume.

Some parallel routings (typically with two or more effects) allow options that are difficult or impossible with a 1-row routing. Delay + shunt just isn't a great example of parallel having any benefit vs. series.
 
ah, our good old friends Fletcher and munson are back again, always controversial, those two! I've seen this come up more than a few times, always easily debunked by creating two patched routed either way and then levelling them the same. The parallel path simply sounds louder, because rather than balancing wet vs dry, you are throwing a wet signal on top of the dry signal, which keeps the dry signal at its initial volume. Now, if you were to do some creative routing like adding a detuned or a chorus or a flange or a reverb or any number of things, you could coul t some cool effects, but simply putting the delay on a parallel path and t unlock any secret mojo. Two drive blocks on parallel paths going into an amp, that'll make a difference, as will many other parallel paths, but in this case you are only noticing a difference in volume.
 
Bakerman said:
Better than what? Series with mix anywhere from 0 to 50% is the same as the OP's parallel delay/shunt example.
Click to expand...

This ^

Delay block has a different mix law than the rest. With delay, the dry level stays at unity gain all the way up to 50% mix. With mix settings below 50% the dry signal is already treated as a shunt so there is no difference at all in series or parallel unless you are routing the wet to other effects before mixing back with the dry.

Other blocks like reverb and chorus, etc. use a more typical unity gain mix law where the output level of the wet+dry sum is held constant throughout the mix range so the dry level goes down as you turn the mix up.

Like this:

Delay Mix Law.png Reverb Mix Law.png
 
Aside from what others have said regarding series and parallel, do take note that some effects really don't make sense in parallel. The Chorus effect does its thing specifically in series.
 
jakbur said:
Technically you would think so but it is easy and obvious to hear the difference especially with reverb!
Click to expand...
Put your reverb in series, set mix to 50% and level at 3dB... Then use Input Gain to adjust the amount of reverb. It is identical to parallel.

Now, if you are running a parallel block with mix less than 100%, you are not really parallel and you are then passing additional dry signal through... And at that point you are adding volume to your signal chain, which is probably what you like more.
 
jakbur said:
Technically you would think so but it is easy and obvious to hear the difference especially with reverb!
Click to expand...

I would counter that its obvious you don't quite understand the technical aspects of the differences in how the mix knob works in series vs parallel.....

When set to have an equal level they sound exactly the same.
 
lqdsnddist said:
I would counter that its obvious you don't quite understand the technical aspects of the differences in how the mix knob works in series vs parallel.....

When set to have an equal level they sound exactly the same.
Click to expand...
I know what my ears tell me but if you wrote the software for these functions and how they route thru, then you do know if it has a one to one relationship with a hard wired mix knob. This has been discussed before and many forum members hear the difference which leads me to believe that there is some economy programed in to this function.
 
jakbur said:
I know what my ears tell me but if you wrote the software for these functions and how they route thru, then you do know if it has a one to one relationship with a hard wired mix knob. This has been discussed before and many forum members hear the difference which leads me to believe that there is some economy programed in to this function.
Click to expand...
Cliff, who did write the code, commented recently in another thread that they are identical.
 
unix-guy said:
Put your reverb in series, set mix to 50% and level at 3dB... Then use Input Gain to adjust the amount of reverb. It is identical to parallel.

Now, if you are running a parallel block with mix less than 100%, you are not really parallel and you are then passing additional dry signal through... And at that point you are adding volume to your signal chain, which is probably what you like more.
Click to expand...
I understand how it is supposed to work and have tweaked many hours on it but my ears tell me something els is going on.
 
It's really pronounced with the chorus but that could be a hint to maybe what I am hearing. I play in mono. Could it be something to do with that?
 
The only difference is volume. When you put the block in parallel to a shunt, the dry level going through the shunt stays at unity gain. That means your sum of wet and dry is louder than just the dry alone. With the standard mix control, as you turn the mix up, the dry level drops. At 50% mix, your wet and dry signals are half the level they were so their sum equals unity gain. Half the signal level = -6 dB.
 
mr_fender said:
The only difference is volume. When you put the block in parallel to a shunt, the dry level going through the shunt stays at unity gain. That means your sum of wet and dry is louder than just the dry alone. With the standard mix control, as you turn the mix up, the dry level drops. At 50% mix, your wet and dry signals are half the level they were so their sum equals unity gain. Half the signal level = -6 dB.
Click to expand...
That makes sense! Volume plays funny tricks with the ears.
 
unix-guy said:
Put your reverb in series, set mix to 50% and level at 3dB... Then use Input Gain to adjust the amount of reverb. It is identical to parallel.

Now, if you are running a parallel block with mix less than 100%, you are not really parallel and you are then passing additional dry signal through... And at that point you are adding volume to your signal chain, which is probably what you like more.
Click to expand...
Now that I think about it, I am probably remembering back before the Mix Law changed and just kept routing parallel out of habit. I am out of town now
lqdsnddist said:
I would counter that its obvious you don't quite understand the technical aspects of the differences in how the mix knob works in series vs parallel.....

When set to have an equal level they sound exactly the same.
Click to expand...

Now that I think about it, I am probably remembering back before the Mix Law changed and just kept routing parallel out of habit. I am out of town now and will test the difference with my ears when I get a chance but you guys are probably right.
 
I've noticed that putting delay and verb in parallel helps maintain the same overall output level across scenes (when switching to a scene where they are bypassed). If in series, there is a perceived volume difference between scenes that have them enabled and scenes that don't. At least in my patches.
 
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