Speaker Frequency

J

jarabuandi

Experienced
Hi all,
just had an interesting conversation with one of the forum members about replacement speakers. Here is the thing. I've build a 2x12 cab and was looking for speakers. I was looking at a few Celestion speakers and noticed that the high freq range is around 5k-5.5k. Now I'm no expert by all means but when I cut the freq in my cab block to 5K it's sounds very muffled. These speakers are intended for guitar cabs so what am I missing?
 
that's the way guitar speakers are. This is a good part of why some players can not get the(amp in room) tone they long for because they are so used to hearing guitar in that frq range.
 
All that means is that the speaker will reproduce energy at that freq at a (specific level) key word there. After that it will roll off considerably, if you look at the graphs that Celestion provides they go out to 20Khz and all the energy past 6k is hugely reduced but it is there. The same thing goes for the other side of the graph most of the energy below 100 Hz rolls off pretty quick but it's still there.

It's not the same if you use a blocking EQ depending on the order of the EQ it may roll off dramatically or gradually, does that make any sense? I'm not the best tech guy when it comes to typing it out.
 
@Sixstring are you saying that the cutting the frq in the cab block to 5k will have this muffled effect but if I'd use a real cab with the max freq at 5K it won't?
 
paranoid said:
that's the way guitar speakers are. This is a good part of why some players can not get the(amp in room) tone they long for because they are so used to hearing guitar in that frq range.
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Not sure that I completely understand what you're trying to say...
 
when using fr speakers there is a much wider frq range, which to some players sounds to hifi when compaird to guitar cabs because of the drop off of the higher frequency's.
 
It's probably because the frequesncy response of the speaker is quoted to plus or minus 3db - In other words it's 3 db down at 5k, and more down as the frequency increases. This doesn't mean there's _no_ output above 5k, just less.

The same theory is good to remember when equalising - for example, adding low bass, to hi-hats or high treble to Bass is often audible, although we often dont think there's anything down/up there.

thanks
Pauly
 
pauly said:
It's probably because the frequesncy response of the speaker is quoted to plus or minus 3db - In other words it's 3 db down at 5k, and more down as the frequency increases. This doesn't mean there's _no_ output above 5k, just less.

The same theory is good to remember when equalising - for example, adding low bass, to hi-hats or high treble to Bass is often audible, although we often dont think there's anything down/up there.

thanks
Pauly
Click to expand...

Pauly, so what would you suggest? I still need two speakers for my cab. I've come across I.M.F speakers (never heard of them) with a 45-5KHz frequency range and don't know if I should go for them or not.
 
G'day Jarabuandi,
In your position, I'd be looking for known quantities - IE; speakers you either know the sound of, or speakers that your influences are using... If (for example) your hero guitarist is using Celestions, why not just plonk down the cash and get them. That's normally a MUCH safer strategy that relying on some frequency response plot supplied by a Chinese manufacturer to the company they are making the speakers for.. or worse.. a marketing department!! I guess what I'm trying to say, is that a frequency response specification is not always a reliable indicator of the sound of the speakers. As an aside, seeing you're using an AXE FX, have you considered using FRFR? That way you could emulate any speakers you want!

Thanks
Pauly
 
pauly said:
G'day Jarabuandi,
In your position, I'd be looking for known quantities - IE; speakers you either know the sound of, or speakers that your influences are using... If (for example) your hero guitarist is using Celestions, why not just plonk down the cash and get them. That's normally a MUCH safer strategy that relying on some frequency response plot supplied by a Chinese manufacturer to the company they are making the speakers for.. or worse.. a marketing department!! I guess what I'm trying to say, is that a frequency response specification is not always a reliable indicator of the sound of the speakers. As an aside, seeing you're using an AXE FX, have you considered using FRFR? That way you could emulate any speakers you want!

Thanks
Pauly
Click to expand...

Pauly, I don't actually have a preferred speaker (Celestion was just as an example))… and yes I'd go with two FRFR speaker in my cab. Hope you can suggest some.
 
Hmmm...
I started looking around but I think I'll relegate that task to someone who's done it as I dont want to lead you astray. I use studio monitors (The ultimate FRFR) so haven't built a FRFR box.
Hopefully someone can reccommend a 12 inch coaxial FRFR driver for you that has actaully done it!

To get you started see the link below. I've heard good things about the radian drivers. What you're aiming for is a smooth sound :) Dont forget to factor in the cost of the passive crossover.

http://www.usspeaker.com/coaxial speakers-1.htm


Thanks
Pauly
 
pauly said:
Hmmm...
I started looking around but I think I'll relegate that task to someone who's done it as I dont want to lead you astray. I use studio monitors (The ultimate FRFR) so haven't built a FRFR box.
Hopefully someone can reccommend a 12 inch coaxial FRFR driver for you that has actaully done it!

To get you started see the link below. I've heard good things about the radian drivers. What you're aiming for is a smooth sound :) Dont forget to factor in the cost of the passive crossover.

http://www.usspeaker.com/coaxial speakers-1.htm


Thanks
Pauly
Click to expand...


Thanks for your feedback and the link. Very much appreciated.
 
jarabuandi said:
@Sixstring are you saying that the cutting the frq in the cab block to 5k will have this muffled effect but if I'd use a real cab with the max freq at 5K it won't?
Click to expand...

Depending on the type of EQ being used yes it can, it has more to do with the type of filter used and how it affects the frequencies after 5k. If the filter used has a very sharp slope then everything after 5k will be drastically cut off, you can play with this by using the filter slope parameter on the advanced tab in the cab block by changing it from 6 to 12 dB.

Further notes on the subject can be found Here in the WiKi
 
Sixstring said:
Depending on the type of EQ being used yes it can, it has more to do with the type of filter used and how it affects the frequencies after 5k. If the filter used has a very sharp slope then everything after 5k will be drastically cut off, you can play with this by using the filter slope parameter on the advanced tab in the cab block by changing it from 6 to 12 dB.

Further notes on the subject can be found Here in the WiKi
Click to expand...


Thanks Sixstring, will definitely give it a shot. I honestly though it'll be easier. I just want two speakers for my DIY 2x12 cab use it as a back line….then I look at the specs which shows ~5KHz and start thinking that that's never going to work. I've got a class D power amp to go with the cab (if i can get it done!). So, here I am puzzled and still w/out the speakers.
 
Hey another option is to change direction and get a powered monitor like the EV, JBL, etc etc that are available. That would get you going quick and eliminate the need for your power amp.

Thanks
Pauly
 
jarabuandi said:
Thanks Sixstring, will definitely give it a shot. I honestly though it'll be easier. I just want two speakers for my DIY 2x12 cab use it as a back line….then I look at the specs which shows ~5KHz and start thinking that that's never going to work. I've got a class D power amp to go with the cab (if i can get it done!). So, here I am puzzled and still w/out the speakers.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry about it not working, guitar speakers have been around for a long time work just fine with or without FAS products!

When I started using the Axe FX I used guitar cabs and it worked just fine. Once I understood how the concept cab sims worked my guitar cabs quickly started to collect dust.

Granted cab sims are not for everyone and that has been thoroughly documented here as well as other forums so you need to decide that for yourself. Personally the benefits of FR outweigh the negatives that are brought up and offer far more flexibility and convenience than a traditional guitar cab.
 
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