Sounds great over FR monitor, into board, not so much

F

FiveBy

New Member
Can I get some help from the experts? When I run my ultra into a QSC I get terrific tone, nice and fat, sounds perfect, just like the real thing. When I take the signal into the recording desk and monitor it over headphones or studio monitors, it sounds really thin. I can't figure this out. This is with powered monitors plugged directly into the desk, or a good pair of Beyer headphones. I'm listening to a band mix over the same monitors and headphones through the same desk and it sounds fat and full. Route my guitar signal into that mix to play along, guitar sounds thin and "fake."

I thought it might be from running the AxeFX into the mic preamp on the board, so I tried a 1/4 inch cable into one of the AUX ins. Same sound.

I've triple checked, the cab simulations are turned on. I can take the same XLR cable off Output 1 out of the QSC and plug that right into the desk and it loses something along the way. I would describe it as thin and spidery sounding.

Any ideas?
 
Try playing with the the output level of the output you're plugging into the desk, it may be too loud for the A/D convertor on the desk.
 
Is it possible your FR monitor doesn't have such a flat response and hypes the bass? That might be my guess.

Yeah, I agree, when running the XLR outs to a board, the outputs are very hot. The first thing I tell the soundguy is he's probably going to have to use his pad.
 
That's normal.
Rercordings sound fuller with compression, also any monitoring at lower volumes.
Playin live is easier without compression. Dynamic sounds cut better trough the mix. Now the compression is made by your ear when you play loud enough, no need for another compression from the axe.
Bernd
 
Been playing with this in my studio today ... it's really interesting.

Using just a clean tone on the guitar, I once again put the QSC (it is a K 12 which is supposed to be fairly flat from what I have read) right next to the guitar cabinet, panned the cabinet simulation to the left to the QSC and the preamp straight out to the right into a solid state power amp and the guitar cabinet. I then added a PEQ after the cab simulation to fine tune until I could hear virtually no difference between the cabinet and the QSC (using filter blocks to mute each side).

Once I got it to match, I plugged the AxeFX right output straight into the board (line level) and set the levels and unplugged the QSC completely. Then I put a brand new SM57 on the guitar cab, up close, the way it's miked at a live gig. I played for a few minutes, recording both channels.

On playback, there was a pronounced difference in the two tones. The SM57 channel had a much fuller low end, richer low mids and a tiny bit more sizzle on the highs. The straight AxeFX channel was thin and somewhat lifeless in comparison, and didn't get near the fuller sound that was coming from the QSC. Night and day.

I did a little more experimenting, adding the SM57 mic to the cabinet simulation, but the effect was far more subtle than was indicated on the board recording.

I suppose the answer, for me, will be to take the 4-band EQ curve I made on the desk (also the same one the band uses live) and reproduce it in another PEQ filter in the AxeFX, and then somehow figure out how to send that to the board but not to my QSC, probably by panning it hard right and sending the right output to the soundboard and the left just to my monitors on stage, because the non EQ sound coming out of the QSC is just like the real cabinet is. (I use the output 2 on an effects loop already.)

My conclusion here is probably somewhat obvious; there's a marked difference between hearing the monitor in the room and playing the recording back later. I expected that, but not really to the degree that I found it to be present.
 
How loud is the sound out of your QSC compared to your other methods? Audible volume, not volume knob. Are you playing "loudly" out of the QSC and "quietly" out of the other things?

A 12" speaker 4 feet away from you pushes more bass and air so it will definitely sound more bassy etc vs a tiiiiiiiiny little driver in a headphone that is 1mm away from your ears.

And I just read you're using that new K series (KILLER SPEAKER!!!). You wouldn't happen to have the "Deep" switch on, would you?

Also, how is the gain structure when plugged into the mixer? Do you have a VU meter? Are you getting good gain? Where on the AxeFX VU meter (utility page) is the level getting to?

Is your Out1 etc knob in the same position in all these situations?

I ask because it's easy to compensate with level knobs to get a great sound out of a speaker, yet not give enough level to a mixer, thus lacking in bass and definition. You may be giving your mixer a weak signal? Not sure yet.

I play live out2 to my JBL 15" eon (SOUNDS GREAT!), then Out1 either xlr or 1/4" to a Mic or Line level, doesn't matter, and it too sounds great! So, not sure what's going on.

EDIT- OH OHOH IDEA. Play the recording back through the QSC! Honestly, the Axe is providing the same signal to all your devices. If it sounds different then it's the device or the speakers you're using when playing back.

Try playing the recording back through that QSC and see what it sounds like.
 
Thanks for the responses ... let me address some questions.

1) The volumes from the QSC and the studio monitors were about the same, the headphones were quite loud, but, obviously, with less low end, as you noted.

2) Output 1 knobs were at noon in all cases.

3) Input meters on the mixer were peaking just below the overload indicator on the meter bridge.

4) Brilliant idea ... I did just that. The recorded guitar signal played back through the QSC sounds the same as the guitar coming out of the QSC. So I don't think it's really anything to do with levels or signal from the mixer.

5) I had the QSC sitting upright, a few inches off the floor, tilted back slightly, right next to the real guitar cabinet, on the other half of the road case tray the guitar cabinet sits on. As if it were the guitar cabinet itself.

The "problem," if you can call it that, is comparing the recorded sound over what it will eventually be listened to over -- headphones, or stereo speakers -- to the actual live tone heard through the guitar cabinet or the QSC. It's thin and lifeless compared to that. However, mic'ing the real cabinet with the SM57 seems to overcome that issue, whether it's the nature of the microphone itself, or the fact that it's capturing the tone off the speaker from an inch away and retaining more low and low-mid frequencies. Whatever it is, it's the sound that works well on playback. Hence, as Bernd suggests, the use of compression and, presumably, EQ, when remixing later, or presenting it through the FOH system live.

It may be that the combination of a clean, bright tone through these particular speakers is exacerbating the difference that I'm hearing; it may be much less of an issue with a high-gain tone, or one that has a lot more low end and mids to it to begin with.

I'm really glad I tried it both ways, though, as it will go a long way to helping me get the right guitar sound out of the AxeFX to FOH and the live recordings. It was bugging me that the guitar sounded thin and sterile on the mixes compared to how it sounded live, and now I can do something about it.
 
play the "mic'd" recording through the qsc.

it originally sounded better (bassier, fuller) on whatever small monitors you were using for playback of the recordings.

i wonder if now that will be too boomy on the qsc!
 
The QSC is probably far from being flat.
And to complicate things it's probably changing when pushing volume.
Combine that with our messed up hearing at different levels and you
get this mess.
But this is nothing new, this is why studios are full with all kind of processors
and an engineer to control it all.

;)
 
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