Some Very Strange Issues....In Need of Advice

The Raven

The Raven

Inspired
Let me start with the positive: The Axe Fx II is absolutely the single-most incredible piece of gear i have had the pleasure of using. Using Axe edit made things a breeze when trying to dial in patches, and downloading IRs from users on this forum has helped me greatly in making some awesome patches. I have even experimented with using a real guitar cabinet and was able to get some pretty awesome sounds. All in all, i could not be happier (minus the issues i am about to discuss).

Now for the negative: Here are some problems I am having:

1. Weird octave issue: So for the past several days, I have been running my Axe Fx through my half stack via the amps front input (it's a line 6 spider valve, so no fx loop). For the most part, I've come relatively close to letting loose large amounts of seminal fluid from the tones have been able to get out of this method, especially since I became greatly disenchanted with the amp's sounds after receiving the Axe. Today however, i was greeted by a fairly strange occurrence while playing. After switching guitars, it seemed like every note i played was being harmonized an octave higher. This stops at around frets 10-12 on each and every string. At first i though it was an issue with my speaker, so i plugged in headphones to see if that got rid of the issue. No change. I then switched Guitars to see if that would fix the issue. No change. I then plugged straight into the amplifier and to my surprise, this awkward octave issue ceased. Plugged into my POD HD with headphones with both guitars and still no issue. Checked Axe again, and the octave was still present. I'm not sure what could cause this, as none of my patches or presets i tested this with had a harmonizer in them, but it is really frustrating me. The sound of the octave is faint enough to not be at exactly the same level as the main output, but loud enough to gain my attention and annoy the crap out of me. Neither of the guitars i was using were of questionable quality (2008 Gibson Les Paul Custom and a Music Man JPX), so i think its safe to say the guitars are not the issue. Any theories as to what could be the cause of this at all?

2. Headaches: This one is one i type with great regret. In the past, i would have migraines on a somewhat regular basis. For a time, these headaches thankfully ceased without any medication whatsoever. Upon receiving the Axe, however, my migraines began to return, but in an entirely new way. At first, i attributed this to my feeling of being overwhelmed by all the figures that were included in this little box that i was driving myself mad, but the headaches persist even today when there i have absolutely no feelings of stress in regards to the axe at all. After playing for long enough with the Axe, my head aches to the point where i become nauseous. As a result of this, I have considered selling the Axe because i do not much care for these ice pick headaches, migraines and nausea, but i cannot bring myself to do so because, lets face it, this this is absolutely incredible. I mean, Jesus Christ, i spent 7 hours about a week ago playing on the ACDC-esque "Hell's Glockenspiels" preset and i don't even listen to ACDC that often. Now i understand a lot of you are going to tell me to see a doctor, call me crazy, or just laugh at this section of the post, and i don't expect anyone on here is a physician that specializes in the topic of headaches, but this question is more of a personal one. As a side note, these headaches are at their worst when i wear headphones and plug straight into the headphone jack on the axe. It takes some time for using it via amp to bring about the same condition. As fellow musicians and Axe Fx lover's, if you were in my situation, what would you do? I really love this thing, but i don't love the god-aweful headaches its use brings about.

Any and all help and answers would be appreciated (minus the "You're an idiot" response). If anyone who chooses to answer could also put a 1 or 2 designating which piece they are answering, i would greatly appreciate that as well.
 
Long cord, different room.. still getting them? If you are thinking frequency based, then... filter time (they are in there in spades). Basic reductionist troubleshooting time IMO.
And just because you do not feel indicators of *stress*, it does not mean you are not experiencing any. I deal with something similar, and even when I think I am relaxed, I discover i am not.. from someone close to me that knows how to tell.
 
so does playing any other gear give you a headache? my family all has serious migraines so i realize that trying to pinpoint the root cause is very important.
 
I hear an octave up in a lot of my high gain patches, but I attributed it to a high degree of second order even harmonic in the distortion. However, I have no real amps to compare it to. I really don't know if it should be there or not. It sounds good to me, but I don't know at this point what the amps are actually supposed to sound like. It's been too long since I played through real tube amps.
 
@moo cow No other gear gives me a headache at all. I can sit there and blast the amp and cab directly at me for some period of time and absolutely no negative effect except for my ears ringing a little. I think one of the main pieces could just have to do with staring at the LCD for an extended period of time, but they happen even if i avoid looking at the screen, so frequency could be an issue as well.

@nikki-k I am fairly new to the unit and equipment such as this so "basic reductionist troubleshooting" is like speaking in a foreign language to me. For my sake, can you elaborate for someone who is completely unknowledgeable in this department. Also, what type of filter would be best?

@Search4Tone Have you found a way to get rid of it. I'm no expert but i play on amps both tube and solid state on a regular basis and never have had this issue. Its still in my clean patches as well, though its a tad bit more faint.
 
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Does the octave issue occur on all amp models?

A lot of 'vintage' amps will do something similar when cranked up - they don't have a very well-filtered power supply, and the AC ripple on the DC rail can interact with the output, causing intermodulation distortion. It's usually most prevalent with humbuckers, neck position, and the G string around the 10th fret or so. If you bend a note there, you can hear the octave bend with it, sometimes in the opposite direction. Vintage Marshalls do this, as well as tweed Fenders.

I know Line 6 modeled this effect starting in the PODxt family. Honestly I don't know if the Axe models it; I rarely use those models for cranked tones.

I guess if you hear it with amps like the Bogners or Diezels, though, my idea isn't your problem.
 
@AdmiralB It seems to be happening on any and all channels regardless of the volume or amp model. Its worse/ more noticeable on high gain amps though.
 
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I had a lady friend some years back who had a very very mild type of epilepsy which presented her with a unique visual frequency disorder. The Hz refresh rate of certain monitors would conflict with the epilepsy effected mind frequency and could and did literally trigger seizures. Other than that reaction, she was non-symptomatic.

I know this is a stretch, but It would be reasonable to explore the concept in theory, that the AD/DA conversion frequency rates could be doing something similar with you, like how when a strobe tuner hits a very specific speed and frequency that the strobe becomes fixed and appears to not be moving even though it is. It's "Bingo point". This scenario could be unique to you in that the actual conversion rate frequency is causing your head to ache because for whatever reason your brain's strobe is hitting it's "bingo point" triggering your perceived "Head Ache". Which like the strobe appearing to have stopped, your head ache is likely only perceived. In other words, the axe has no real ability to hurt you. Although it does have some very specific frequency stuff going on that is very real.

Perhaps you have some similar very very mild epilepsy issue (which are known to react to frequencies, at least, and most usually in a visual manifestation) that responds negatively to the conversion frequencies specific to the AXE??
 
The Raven said:
@moo cow No other gear gives me a headache at all. I can sit there and blast the amp and cab directly at me for some period of time and absolutely no negative effect except for my ears ringing a little. I think one of the main pieces could just have to do with staring at the LCD for an extended period of time, but they happen even if i avoid looking at the screen, so frequency could be an issue as well.

@nikki-k I am fairly new to the unit and equipment such as this so "basic reductionist troubleshooting" is like speaking in a foreign language to me. For my sake, can you elaborate for someone who is completely unknowledgeable in this department. Also, what type of filter would be best?

@Search4Tone Have you found a way to get rid of it. I'm no expert but i play on amps both tube and solid state on a regular basis and never have had this issue. Its still in my clean patches as well, though its a tad bit more faint.
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I only hear an octave on high gain patches, not on clean ones. I also get massive headaches from looking at the LCD screen too long. Looking at a computer monitor with a slow refresh rate (the old style CRTs were awful) will give me severe headaches. I also recently learned that many new LED backlit computer monitors use pulse width modulation at, get this, 60Hz to alter the brightness of the panel. That sucks, and it's a sure fire recipe for a headache. If you use an LED backlit monitor, check the PWM frequency (should be able to find it online). If it's 60Hz, either crank the brightness all the way up, or buy a new monitor.

I don't know what the refresh rate on the LCD of the AXE is but just looking at those tiny letters and numbers gives me a headache. Thank goodness for AxeEdit.
 
AdmiralB said:
Does the octave issue occur on all amp models?

A lot of 'vintage' amps will do something similar when cranked up - they don't have a very well-filtered power supply, and the AC ripple on the DC rail can interact with the output, causing intermodulation distortion. It's usually most prevalent with humbuckers, neck position, and the G string around the 10th fret or so. If you bend a note there, you can hear the octave bend with it, sometimes in the opposite direction. Vintage Marshalls do this, as well as tweed Fenders.

I know Line 6 modeled this effect starting in the PODxt family. Honestly I don't know if the Axe models it; I rarely use those models for cranked tones.

I guess if you hear it with amps like the Bogners or Diezels, though, my idea isn't your problem.
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You know, now that you mention it, I HAVE observed this behavior with some vintage styled amps - I always thought that it was the guitar, which I always found strange, as unplugged and pressed to my ear, I could not hear the 'octave' effect anymore. No matter how much I set my guitars, I'd always have that issue occasionally. Could never quite make sense of it till your post! ;)

@the raven - could it also be that you're suffering from ear fatigue? I do mixing, and often have to listen for a long time to get things done. I've found that I was also getting a kind of 'stuffed, spinning' feeling associated with a headache. I'd get something more akin to an anxiety attack. Was never bad, just enough for me to get a bit frustrated. How I do my mixes etc now is: take a break every 45 mins or so, and less (for eg every 30 mins or so) when on headphones.
The axe reproduces a lot of higher frequencies that other modellers do not capture, and headphones will exaggerate the issue. Also, keep in mind that there are frequencies that the average person would not hear, such as those above 16-18kHz. I have sensitive hearing, and can hear most of these. I've found that they lead to panic/anxiety attacks/mental stress/headaches etc.
The solution to that may be to use the high cut in the amp's block, and cut everything over about 5-7k or so - they are hardly present in guitar cabs anyway, if at all.
If it helps, or you find the solution, please post so that others may also learn.
 
Line 6 amp on clean I'm guessing? Remember that's a model too so you may be running a modeler into a modeled clean tone. I think you can choose "tube preamp" on most line 6 amps. That's a better choice if you arent doing that already.
 
chrisallen8888 said:
Line 6 amp on clean I'm guessing? Remember that's a model too so you may be running a modeler into a modeled clean tone. I think you can choose "tube preamp" on most line 6 amps. That's a better choice if you arent doing that already.
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I actually keep the amp in test mode, so theres little to no extra coloring of tone. i have the original spider valve hd100, so it only has a "preamp out" and "power amp in", which seems rather counter-intuitive to me.
 
That sucks man.

I do wonder (and this is just pulling something from my butt here)....have you tried turning off grid modelling in the amp block for the octave issue? AdmiralB's post got me thinking that this is kind of what that feature is supposed to be simulating to a degree...based solely on something I read somewhere and my interpretation of it. I could be completely off base, but it will just take a second to give it a try.

I got nothing on the migraines. I only get them when I have sinus issues and I do find that having my ears completely sealed with a set of closed headphones will exasorbate it. But it's rare. I konw that I'm fortunate because they do suck big time.
 
Somewhat of solutions so far:

1. Octave issue: I think i may have found the problem, but prepare yourself because it is very odd. Today, i played with the axe just through headphones and sure enough, no octave issues. After going through the patches and noticing nothing was wrong, i rejoiced. I then decided to test coming out of the line 6. To my amazement, no initial problems. I scrolled through and stopped at a preset with an Enhancer block, and the problem started again, both through the amp and headphones on all the patches. shut the axe down for a little way, brought it back up and plugged it in to my computer and headphones and PRESTO, no more octave. I'm not pointing fingers, but I'm pretty sure the Enhancer going through a guitar cab is the issue at least in my case, for this is more or less what happened yesterday. The only difference is the problem ceased today after leaving the unit off for a little while

2. Headaches: This one is still a bit tricky. I've been experimenting with multiple different solutions and have been greeted with good results, though I cannot be certain how if this will continue to be of use in the long run. Usually, i keep the axe on my desk with my macbook sitting atop, so it sits roughly chest level to me. I have since moved the unit lower so it is not in my line of vision at all and do all my preset making via AXE EDIT. This has surprisingly helped a great deal just by itself. I also played with frequencies and made the Hi Cut on most patches 10k or less (mail fooling with 5-7k) and have not got a headache all day since combining these two. I have yet to play with filters, eq's, or anything of the like as of yet because so far, the former two items have been working tremendously. Though i can hear a significant tonal difference as i drop the Hi Cut, i find the result worth it. Heck i even kind of prefer the sound with the added Hi Cut vs the usual 16k I'm seeing on roughly 75% of these patches.

For now, these are my solutions. If i discover something more efficient I'll post it, but in the mean time, input and feedback are still more than welcome
 
Yeah I steer clear of the enhancer block in general. I've never found a really good application for it myself.

I wonder if the color of the display itself is causing issues. I mean colors have a wavelength which is just a frequency of light and we all know that certain colors can trigger certain respsonses to people, i.e., red walls make people agitated, etc. Could be the refresh rate as well as others have said.

I hi cut almost all my patches. A guitar cab isn't going to go above about 7kHz most of the time and I like the way it sounds and it makes it easier to tame other things. I always thought of it as a personal preference thing though.

At least you are getting somewhere.
 
Slight hijack - but the other night was the first time I ever got feedback through headphones - actually tuneful feedback! Just a tad too much gain I think .....
 
The Raven said:
I actually keep the amp in test mode, so theres little to no extra coloring of tone. i have the original spider valve hd100, so it only has a "preamp out" and "power amp in", which seems rather counter-intuitive to me.
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Why don't you just plug the Axe into "power amp in"? You only want that power amp, and you'll avoid that extra A/D/A conversion and whatnot that definitely might give you headache 8)
 
The Raven said:
I actually keep the amp in test mode, so theres little to no extra coloring of tone. i have the original spider valve hd100, so it only has a "preamp out" and "power amp in", which seems rather counter-intuitive to me.
Click to expand...

I believe this is essentially an effects loop is it not? I would definitely be plugging the Axe into the power amp in jack. The only downside is you may not have level control of the amp at that point and levels would have to controlled solely with the Axe. Just make sure you power on the Axe FIRST and amp LAST if that is the case.
 
+1 on plugging into the power amp in. The master volume on the line 6 might work to control the volume. It's worth a try. I'm glad you're solving some issues. Migraines really suck!
 
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