So much Bass ?

Jamme1961

Inspired
I set up some of my tube amps next to my FM9 and AB’d them. In every case the tube amps have a less Bass and more mids? The amps I tried were Deluxe Reverb- Marshall Plexi- Princeton reverb -,Why is this ? I have found this on other modelers too.

I’m using the fender FR-12 mainly dialing in for live use with the band
 
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Not to be a wise guy, but the obvious answer is that you more bass and less mids dialed in on your amps.

The tolerances of the pots used in amp manufacture vary wildly. Sometimes it’s a one to one match dialing a familiar amp in to the Fractal model. Sometimes it’s ~20-30% (or more) different, or even more so depending on your amplification method. As long as you can get it where you want it, you’re good to go, even when the numbers don’t line up.

Using your known amp settings is a great starting point, but expect to do a little adjusting by ear to move it where you need it to be.
 
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As @OrganicZed asked, how are you monitoring both?
Hopefully, you're not comparing 'in the room amp/cab tone" to the FM9... which would be a mic'd amp/cab tone.
An "In the room cab" will not sound like the FM9 with IR.
The best test IMO is to record both real amp and FM9 using the same IR.
 
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I set up some of my tube amps next to my FM9 and AB’d them
Not enough info to answer:
  • How is your FM9 amplified? (through return of your tube amp?, headphones?, Studio Monitors?, FRCABs? ... ??).
  • Attach preset(s) - without that any answer is a shot in the dark, and if attaching a preset to get others' feedback, post a DI track and guitar description with it so that others can match your sound.
  • Post sound clips of A and B (not everyones concept of "Bass" is the same.
 
It's also been my experience that models tend to be more scooped. I have found that the right cab IR is very powerful. Mostly I am running Greenback 57 IRs. Try Leon Todd's TV 7 cab as well.
 
sorry guys I’m not talking about recording - I’m talking playing live in the room - I guess that’s the difference- easy enough to tweak the sound it just always seems to be the same with the bass and mids - thanks

Using Austin buddy live gold
 
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If you want the FM9 to sound like you’re playing through a live cab in the room with you, disable the cab block and run an amp model into a good power amp and live cab in the room with you. No modeler can magically transform a PA speaker into a live cab. When you run direct with a modeler and cab sim, you’re recreating the signal from a mic on a cab in another room, played back through whatever speakers you’re using. If you recorded those exact amps and played that signal through the FR12, you’d have the same problem. The recording of the amps with a mic played thru a PA speaker would sound totally different than the exact same amps in the room.
 
sorry guys I’m not talking about recording - I’m talking playing live in the room - I guess that’s the difference- easy enough to tweak the sound it just always seems to be the same with the bass and mids - thanks

Using Austin buddy live gold
I use a some of AB's Live Gold as well. They are great loud through FOH. I've tweaked a lot of them for my personal use with delays, reverbs, and also swapped cabs to my go-to Ownhammer IR's. With any FRFR though, you'll need to get the volume up to gig level for frequencies to balance out.

Yeah, "in the room cab" and "mic'd cab heard through a P.A. or FOH" are 2 different animals.
 
sorry guys I’m not talking about recording - I’m talking playing live in the room - I guess that’s the difference- easy enough to tweak the sound it just always seems to be the same with the bass and mids - thanks

Using Austin buddy live gold

Sounds like a classic room issue …

If it doesn’t sound like it in the headphones… It’s the room (and your transducers/placement).

FWIW, I generally EQ my signal path to the traditional guitar cabs to somewhat match my monitors. With a kilowatt to 4x12” drivers playing, there is a ton of low end available. Has to be managed imo.
 
Don’t forget that speaker placement can be a huge factor. The closer the speaker gets to a wall, the floor, a wall/floor intersection or a corner, the more you’ll get exaggerated bass.
 
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In every case the tube amps have a less Bass and more mids? The amps I tried were Deluxe Reverb- Marshall Plexi- Princeton reverb -,Why is this ? I have found this on other modelers too.
You're comparing a non-mic'd speaker to an IR of a speaker with the mic close to the speaker, which causes the proximity effect to be captured in the IR. They're not the same thing.

Run the modeler into a solid-state power-amp and connect it to the same speaker, and turn off cab modeling and compare the two.

Also, as mentioned before, the Fletcher-Munson effect could be causing differences as "less Bass and more mids" are a big symptom of what happens when the volume is too low.

And, as @Rex said, the speaker's mode/space can emphasize the lows. Move the speakers two feet from all walls to help avoid that problem.
 
maybe I’ve been going about this all wrong - so if I’m just interested in using the FM9 live at gigs ( we don’t mic anything small little bars) - I should shut off the cabs and run into a standard guitar cabinet - right? I don’t need FRFR right?
 
maybe I’ve been going about this all wrong - so if I’m just interested in using the FM9 live at gigs ( we don’t mic anything small little bars) - I should shut off the cabs and run into a standard guitar cabinet - right? I don’t need FRFR right?

You can run it either way, traditional guitar cab or FRFR. I prefer FRFR to maintain a more neutral platform to capture more of the character of the cabs/IRs from the FM9, and, if you are running your FM9 into FOH, FRFR is a better predictor generally of the FOH sound. Ultimately a matter of personal taste. Some folks just prefer their tone from a guitar cab.

If you are getting too much bass in your FRFR (or guitar cab) you can set up a HPF at 70hz-130hz more or less. Adjust to taste. HPF can be set up per preset, or a low cut in the global EQ if you need it on every preset.
 
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maybe I’ve been going about this all wrong - so if I’m just interested in using the FM9 live at gigs ( we don’t mic anything small little bars) - I should shut off the cabs and run into a standard guitar cabinet - right? I don’t need FRFR right?

Exactly. Haul your Tube amp with you, plug FM9 into FX Return of your amp.

Pure bliss.

There are some tonal things to be aware of when you use an amp this way, but don't worry about it for now. Just enjoy playing your FM9 though a tube amp, it's life altering.
 
maybe I’ve been going about this all wrong - so if I’m just interested in using the FM9 live at gigs ( we don’t mic anything small little bars) - I should shut off the cabs and run into a standard guitar cabinet - right? I don’t need FRFR right?
It's up to you, but in all cases you have to be aware of the physics, how sound is affected by the floor and walls because it'll affect a regular guitar amp and cabinet just as it will a good FRFR. And, on top of the FRFR's acoustics you have to be aware of the IR choice and how it was captured.

Too often people just throw their cabinet wherever, and if it's a regular guitar amp they turn the knobs to re-EQ its sound if they don't like it and that's the end of it. With a modeler they set their bar a LOT higher, as if the modeler is supposed to know how to do that stuff itself, and then the physics step in and it's the modeler's fault. In either case it's the player, it's just that the modeler has a lot more capability so it should just know, ya know!? :)

My tube amps still react the same way to their placement as my FRFR cabs do when placed in the same spot on stage, so I do the same thing with either, I turn down the bass, and the problem goes away. On the modeler I do it differently though, but it's the same overall effect.

Regarding the IR choice and mic proximity, that's one of the really cool things about the Dyna-Cabs, you pick the speaker and mic, then you can move the mic. The distance from the speaker controls the bass, and the distance from the cap controls the treble, and somewhere in there is our happy place.
 
Hi Jamme1961,

Another option which is cost free, and will solve your problem is the “high pass” feature in the cab block. Just adjust it until the bass is how you want. Job done.
Thanks
Pauly
maybe I’ve been going about this all wrong - so if I’m just interested in using the FM9 live at gigs ( we don’t mic anything small little bars) - I should shut off the cabs and run into a standard guitar cabinet - right? I don’t need FRFR right?
 
I set up some of my tube amps next to my FM9 and AB’d them. In every case the tube amps have a less Bass and more mids? The amps I tried were Deluxe Reverb- Marshall Plexi- Princeton reverb -,Why is this ? I have found this on other modelers too.

I’m using the fender FR-12 mainly dialing in for live use with the band
The Fr-12 is hyped in the bass and highs with the eq knobs centered. It is an awesome backline, but not a reference monitor for eq'ing presets. Here is the curve (in red) of the fr with the knobs centered.
IMG_1102.jpeg
 
Maybe i'm crazy but i always think my real amps are more scooped through cabs. Could be my duncan powerstage 170 colouring the tone though. I've heard class D can'g reproduce the super highs and lows of a tube amp.
 
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