SMS Classic Twin Pre-Amp

[LVC]

I am seriously thinking of getting one of these and adding to my Axe-FX rack.

SMS Classic Tube Preamp

http://www.sarnomusicsolutions.com/resources/Online-Product-Manuals/CTPmanual2011.pdf

The unit weighs 4.5 pounds and its dimensions are:

Width: 19” Standard rack mount width
Height: 1-3/4” Standard single space rack unit height (1 RU)
Depth: 7.5”

Since I use mostly the Twin when I gig if I can add this to my rack it would give me the best of both worlds (analog and digital).

The idea would be to have the Tube Twin Pre kick in on Scenes where I am using a Twin (instead of the Axe-FX Twin sim) and just use the Axe-fx for effects. Then out when I use an amp in the Axe-fx (i.e. Friedman) -- all being powered of course with my Matrix GT1000FX.

So for example here is a screen shot of my "Fried Twin" Patch (uses Twin and Friedman BE)

Scenes 1-3 uses a Twin
Scenes 4 - 5 uses the Friedman BE

I would like the Twin Tube pre to kick-in when I use scenes 1-3 and the AXE Friedman pre when I use scenes 4 and 5.

How would your set up the preset and rig the AXE?

 

[Moltenmetalburn]

I do this a lot. Well, permutations.

I use HV tube based pedals that are essentially preamps with my axe fx.

The thing is it's another rabbit hole, sure you can add real tube preamps for the best of both worlds but you'll soon start collecting preamps as I have lol, all to add to the preamp that got me to sell my 8 amp heads and preamps.

If I were you, I would start with the kingley squire instead of the sarno and go from there. Saves money and the kingsley is awesome! Not rackmountable though.


Also the sarno black box is amazing in front of an axe fx for feel and slight color.

I am currently using a VHT valvulator buy may grab a sarno again as well.

 

[Moltenmetalburn]

Wow just realized it's not the revelation but a different preamp you are looking at from them, damn now I am interested in one.

See! Stay away from preamps! Addictive!

 

[LVC]

the SMS tube preamp is amazing. It is a "real" Twin Preamp and it only costs $695 and weighs only 4.5 pounds!

Jerry Garcia's setup was basically running Fender Twin Preamps into Macintosh amps.

I think incorporating a 4.5 pound real Fender Twin preamp into the Axe-FX could be incredible (especially if you can combine with Axe amps and use in your regular presets/scenes.

 

[paulasbell]

Is that similar to (or the same as) the Alembic F2-B preamp?

I've been using one of those– into a solid-state Clarus head, into a "Raezer's Edge" cab– for my jazz gigs for many years now. I've recently replaced it with the AxeFx in Tube Pre mode, into FRFR.

So far, I think I'm happier w/ the AxeFx setup... but that's in part due to access to the PEQ, far nicer reverb, etc. But also... the archtop jazz sound is probably not the same sound is you're going for.

 

[LVC]

No ... not even close.

I believe the Alembic F2-B preamp is based on the 60's showman that had been modified with a preamp out. It is also two channels designed to connect stereo instruments to amps.

I suspect the Alembic F2-B preamp was designed to work with Alembic stereo guitars.

The SMS Classic Preamp is a straight up tube Fender Twin Preamp with reverb.

Is that similar to (or the same as) the Alembic F2-B preamp?

 

[paulasbell]

My understanding has always been that a pre-CBS Showman preamp section is virtually the same as the twin Reverb preamp section. Both use the AB763 circuit... right? The only significant diff being reverb.

If that's true... then wouldn't the only real diff be the reverb section in the SMS?

 

[paulasbell]

Just did a bit of digging into this. Here's a quote from Brad Sarno...

"The SMS Classic pre is based around the classic Fender tonestack. It'll do the old Showman, Twin, Bassman normal channel, etc. voicings"

Sounds like Brad thinks the Twin and Showman pre circuits are basically the same.

That said, many people seem to think the SMS product is a bit quieter, and possibly better made than the F2-B. Also, the fact that his circuit is modeled after the REVERB channel of the Twin/Showman Reverb apparently makes a bit of diff, as there's an extra tube stage present in the Reverb channel, whether you use the reverb, or not.

 

[LVC]

Actually they are pretty close

Blackface Showman ( AA763) is basically a Twin without reverb.

I am talking about the BF Showman that was made between 63-67.

Just did a bit of digging into this. Here's a quote from Brad Sarno...

"The SMS Classic pre is based around the classic Fender tonestack. It'll do the old Showman, Twin, Bassman normal channel, etc. voicings"

Sounds like Brad thinks the Twin and Showman pre circuits are basically the same.

That said, many people seem to think the SMS product is a bit quieter, and possibly better made than the F2-B. Also, the fact that his circuit is modeled after the REVERB channel of the Twin/Showman Reverb apparently makes a bit of diff, as there's an extra tube stage present in the Reverb channel, whether you use the reverb, or not.

 

[LVC]

My understanding has always been that a pre-CBS Showman preamp section is virtually the same as the twin Reverb preamp section. Both use the AB763 circuit... right? The only significant diff being reverb.

If that's true... then wouldn't the only real diff be the reverb section in the SMS?

Yes they are.

Just to clarify when I said not even close I really was referring to the fact that the Alembic F2-B is really something different that is based on the circuit with a completely different functionality in mind, whereas the SMS is essentially the Twin preamp and designed specifically for that purpose.

I've never played the Alembic F2-B but my understanding is that they are designed for stereo guitars (maybe I am wrong).

 

[paulasbell]

"...they are designed for stereo guitars (maybe I am wrong)"

Yes, perhaps. You certainly can use 'em for that. But the F2-B is basically 2 channels of Pre-CBS Fender preamp, without reverb. (Apparently, the model name refers to (F)ender (2)Twin (B)lackface).

So, in short... it sounds like Brad Sarno's SMS Classic is s'posed to be a slightly improved, 1-channel version of what the F2-B is... but with onboard reverb.

Anyway... that's the sound I've been using, too.

 

[LVC]

"...they are designed for stereo guitars (maybe I am wrong)"

Yes, perhaps. You certainly can use 'em for that. But the F2-B is basically 2 channels of Pre-CBS Fender preamp, without reverb. (Apparently, the model name refers to (F)ender (2)Twin (B)lackface).

So, in short... it sounds like Brad Sarno's SMS Classic is s'posed to be a slightly improved, 1-channel version of what the F2-B is... but with onboard reverb.

Anyway... that's the sound I've been using, too.

so you currently have it hooked up to your Axe-FX?

I would like to run the tube Pre when my preset/scene call for the Twin.

 

[paulasbell]

>so you currently have it hooked up to your Axe-FX?<

No. I suspect I wasn't clear earlier.

I USED to use jazzbox guitar into the F2-B, into a Clarus SS amp, into a Raezers Edge jazz cab. Loved that setup... but lately, I'm simply using guitar>AxeFx2>QSC12.

 

[barhrecords]

In this scenario:

1. The guitar is plugged into the front input of the AxeFx.
2. The Amp block and FX Loop block bypass mode is set to Mute
3. Output 2 of the AxeFx -> SMS preamp in
4. SMS line out -> Input 2 AxeFx
5. The scenes bypass / activate the Amp and FX Loop blocks

 

[LVC]

Thanks!

If I am reading this correctly --- depending on the scene -- I can either run the sms preamp or an Axe-FX amp sim (or both).

On my Afam break out box I have extra jacks that I can use with a short jumper cable to connect the input of the SMS to the Axe-FX.

I think this could sound extremely sweet!

Best of both worlds in a rack!

In this scenario:

1. The guitar is plugged into the front input of the AxeFx.
2. The Amp block and FX Loop block bypass mode is set to Mute
3. Output 2 of the AxeFx -> SMS preamp in
4. SMS line out -> Input 2 AxeFx
5. The scenes bypass / activate the Amp and FX Loop blocks

 

[LVC]

Have you tried the Raezer's Edge cabs with the Axe-FX?

Those are nice ported cabs that work extremely well with ss amps.

For anyone that does know about these cabs (and amps) .. here is a link

http://www.raezers-edge.com/p_stealth12.htm

http://www.raezers-edge.com/product.htm

>so you currently have it hooked up to your Axe-FX?<

No. I suspect I wasn't clear earlier.

I USED to use jazzbox guitar into the F2-B, into a Clarus SS amp, into a Raezers Edge jazz cab. Loved that setup... but lately, I'm simply using guitar>AxeFx2>QSC12.

 

[barhrecords]

The FX Loop block is Send on Output 2. Return on Input 2. So you can mix and match any way you want.

I put the Fx Loop in that preset such that you could use the AxeFx drive pedals and wah Et. al. in front of the SMS too.

 

[LVC]

Thanks for the road map.

Very helpful.

The FX Loop block is Send on Output 2. Return on Input 2. So you can mix and match any way you want.

I put the Fx Loop in that preset such that you could use the AxeFx drive pedals and wah Et. al. in front of the SMS too.

 

[barhrecords]

I bet the Garcia mod to the SMS is pretty stellar.

I'm a huge fan of Garcia and his clean tones are to die for. I think he is off the radar of a lot of tone chasers though. It's a shame. He had one of the baddest clean high headroom sustain tones on the planet. Sad to lose him.

 

[LVC]

He has NEVER been off my radar. :lol Very big fan of his.

In my old band we used to do a lot of GD tunes -- with my current one we don't.

However -- I think his clean tone and his use of a clean tone with a Mutron is about as good as it gets.

When I first got the Axe -- my goal was to nail down a great Twin clean tone and a Mutron. Mutron preset Yek came up with kills and I use it all the time, however I wish cliff would model an actual Mutron (or the Proton by 3Leaf).

On my pedalboard (for tube amps) I use the Proton by 3Leaf. Absolutely the best Mutron clone on the market today (IMO)

Proton

I bet the Garcia mod to the SMS is pretty stellar.

I'm a huge fan of Garcia and his clean tones are to die for. I think he is off the radar of a lot of tone chasers though. It's a shame. He had one of the baddest clean high headroom sustain tones on the planet. Sad to lose him.