Small monitors, treble causing issues... upgrade? change?

S

sl33py

Member
Hi all. I have a pair of Adam Audio A3X which I use for playing my FM9. They are on iso-acoustic brand stands.

Annoyingly (and painfully), it's only when I get them up at 80-85dB or more that they start sounding good (and different to each other).
At this volume, the treble content is kinda shredding my ears after only a short while playing...

Thoughts:
1) Am I maybe pushing these small monitors too hard, getting some distortion and need bigger monitors that can make the sounds easier?
2) Is this simply a desktop monitor issue that I wouldn't get with something like a Laney/Atomic/etc FRFR cab sitting on the floor? I don't get this issue with my real amp.
3) Do I need a sub to take over some of the duties from the A3X? I find they can't quite handle the bass the amp models can put out.

Any ideas what I can do to avoid killing my ears, but still get the sound I like? Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
 
reduce the treble in fm9 tones maybe? FM curve is kicking in making treble seem louder faster as you turn up.

i use A5X with no issues like this at loud volumes.

could it be some of the things you mentioned as well? sure. but maybe that's what your tones sound like when it's loud.
 
sl33py said:
Hi all. I have a pair of Adam Audio A3X which I use for playing my FM9. They are on iso-acoustic brand stands.

Annoyingly (and painfully), it's only when I get them up at 80-85dB or more that they start sounding good (and different to each other).
At this volume, the treble content is kinda shredding my ears after only a short while playing...

Thoughts:
1) Am I maybe pushing these small monitors too hard, getting some distortion and need bigger monitors that can make the sounds easier?
2) Is this simply a desktop monitor issue that I wouldn't get with something like a Laney/Atomic/etc FRFR cab sitting on the floor? I don't get this issue with my real amp.
3) Do I need a sub to take over some of the duties from the A3X? I find they can't quite handle the bass the amp models can put out.

Any ideas what I can do to avoid killing my ears, but still get the sound I like? Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
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Definitely don’t kill your ears! What other monitoring systems have you tried? Have you evaluated against reference tracks or isolated guitar tracks? Have you evaluated in different rooms?

With any monitoring system there are compromises, so the quicker I’m able to quantify what sounds “off,” the better able I am to compensate knowing how things will translate.
 
chris said:
reduce the treble in fm9 tones maybe? FM curve is kicking in making treble seem louder faster as you turn up.

i use A5X with no issues like this at loud volumes.

could it be some of the things you mentioned as well? sure. but maybe that's what your tones sound like when it's loud.
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Hmm if I reduce the treble, it's all just muddy and boring though.
rockstarjazzcat said:
Definitely don’t kill your ears! What other monitoring systems have you tried? Have you evaluated against reference tracks or isolated guitar tracks? Have you evaluated in different rooms?

With any monitoring system there are compromises, so the quicker I’m able to quantify what sounds “off,” the better able I am to compensate knowing how things will translate.
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I've got some Beyerdynamic DT880s (250ohm) and things sound a bit meh unless I have them louder than is good for my ears, I'm sure. I can't really play with them for that reason. I used to play an Axe FX 2 mk2 through a pair of Presonus E8s. I found very similar - unless I had them cranked up pretty darn loud, everything just sounded muddy and boring. Once cranked, amps sound great, and more unique from each other, but by that point it's loud enough to harm ears after a short time. I haven't played in other rooms - can't play in those rooms at all (family home) so kind of academic. The Axe FX2 was in an apartment with a much more open space than I'm currently playing, and I observed the same kind of effect.
I haven't played music through them as a reference point. Is the point of playing some to make sure the music isn't sounding overly trebly in their configuration (they only have a treble pot)?
 
Do you have acoustic treatment? If not then diagnosing the issue is a total crapshoot because most of what you’re hearing is reflections from the room.

sl33py said:
I haven't played music through them as a reference point. Is the point of playing some to make sure the music isn't sounding overly trebly in their configuration (they only have a treble pot)?
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Definitely do this. If music sounds great through them then you’ll know the issue is with the tones you’ve dialed in as opposed to the settings on the monitors or how you have them set up in the room. Either way there is no substitute for proper placement and good acoustic treatment.
 
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sl33py said:
I haven't played music through them as a reference point. Is the point of playing some to make sure the music isn't sounding overly trebly in their configuration (they only have a treble pot)?
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Essentially? Playing with a backing track to see how the guitar tone sits in context is also key.

Ears are terribly inaccurate judges of things in isolation but are pretty great in picking out differences… I wonder, these monitors… Are you listening in configured near field or just blasting away into the room? 85dB evolved out of movie theater dolby systems qa’ing their new gear in the presence of audio engineers listening to full arrangements in big rooms. In near field, an instrument in isolation, without air moving the body, I try to standardize lower and evaluate on bigger systems.
 
rockstarjazzcat said:
Essentially? Playing with a backing track to see how the guitar tone sits in context is also key.

Ears are terribly inaccurate judges of things in isolation but are pretty great in picking out differences… I wonder, these monitors… Are you listening in configured near field or just blasting away into the room? 85dB evolved out of movie theater dolby systems qa’ing their new gear in the presence of audio engineers listening to full arrangements in big rooms. In near field, an instrument in isolation, without air moving the body, I try to standardize lower and evaluate on bigger systems.
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Yup, nearfield. About 4 foot from each speaker.
 
À fellow musician recently bought alto "1000W 8" active speakers for rehearsing at home. We almost returned them instantly due to feedback problems of treble band when pushing them. He got 10" Yamaha speakers and everything was OK. You might want to try the Elis speakers of red sound. Personally I don't know them but some users on the forum do like them.
 
lauke-lux said:
À fellow musician recently bought alto "1000W 8" active speakers for rehearsing at home. We almost returned them instantly due to feedback problems of treble band when pushing them. He got 10" Yamaha speakers and everything was OK. You might want to try the Elis speakers of red sound. Personally I don't know them but some users on the forum do like them.
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So you reckon the monitors are the problem?
 
Check your axe fx if power Amp and cab Sims are activated. If they are, let's say that few 8" monitors are satisfactory at higher levels. It's a POSSIBLE cause indeed.
 
lauke-lux said:
Check your axe fx if power Amp and cab Sims are activated. If they are, let's say that few 8" monitors are satisfactory at higher levels. It's a POSSIBLE cause indeed.
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Oh, they're on :) I'm not new to this... Had a fractal of some sort over the past nearly decade. Just a bit unenthused with the sounds I'm getting... Unless my ears are nearly hurting >_< I just don't know how to get the sounds I like without it having to be so loud, and wondering if maybe different gear (or using my current great a different way) could get me there
 
sl33py said:
So you reckon the monitors are the problem?
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I highly doubt it, assuming they’re functioning properly. The Adam AX series are a perfectly adequate mid-tier studio monitor and a 4.5” woofer is plenty for the average residential home studio. Replacing the speakers will not fix the issues with your room: peaks and nulls from the room modes, long decay times, flutter echo, etc. These problems can only be solved with absorption-based acoustic treatment and you need to solve them before you can accurately judge anything you’re hearing in the room.
 
sl33py said:
I really want to hear what @chris thinks I should do
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Modeling amps reproduce guitar akin to how guitar tracks appear in mixed music. If music with a balanced frequency spectrum sounds trebly in your room, then so will your guitar, so @strabes is absolutely correct.

There are rooms in my house where if I listen to audio on a cell phone the volume spikes and I wince at the treble frequencies. I'm sure many in the modern world have had that experience. We don't hear the speakers directly, we are touched by the waves bouncing around in the room.

So, try different rooms, analyze the room, fix what get's the best results for the room at hand.

In younger years I had fantastic gear that had painful spikes in the mids that were absolutely unbearable at volume. The solution was to notch those frequencies and get a sound that sounded good to me at reasonable volumes. But, the real trick was taking my rig to a trusted gear mentor and getting the lecture on how to notch the frequency and an explanation for how the great processor I had at the time was an inadequate replacement for the kind of eq'ing I needed. It was basically the same essentials as what Petrucci and Metallica were playing through and I was missing pieces of the puzzle I could only acquire through talking to experts. Experts may include guitar rig experts, acousticians, audiologists, etc.

Chris can speak for himself, but I see that he's pointed out multiple paradoxes in what you've presented. When faced with those kinds of paradoxes I usually go back to basics and ask what the real problems involved are. I look forward to hearing what you figure out works! Cheers.
 
sl33py said:
Thanks for your advice.
Actually, the reason I want to hear what Chris thinks is because he said the things I wrote aligned to a common theme (implying possibly a single likely cause), the opposite of a paradox :)
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You are welcome. One off the cuff solution to the common if not paradoxical theme would be to notch treble less, wear earplugs, and crank up bigger monitors outdoors. Good luck. :)
 
Are you familiar with the FM curve concept?

Perhaps the solution is at lower volumes you need more treble - instead of volume - to hear what you want to hear.

Physics dictates that as you increase volume in the room, treble (and bass) get louder faster, so maybe loud to you just means more treble or saturation of treble?

It’s hard to recommend based off what I quoted because I don’t know the preferences in your mind and ears. I don’t know why louder sounds better to you, so it’s hard to recommend a solution.

Just pointing out that with different pieces of gear, lower volumes sound “boring” - which I don’t know what that means. But with different things producing the same result, there has to be a common solution.

Have you played tube amps at loud volumes before? I don’t know your experience, therefore don’t know what previous experiences you’re chasing.

Maybe you’re used to a real cabinet throwing sound everywhere at loud volumes, reflecting off the room providing a more 3D sound compared to directional speakers at low volumes not doing that.

I just saw a distinct pattern and mentioned it in case something clicks in your mind with that pointed out.
 
chris said:
Are you familiar with the FM curve concept?

Perhaps the solution is at lower volumes you need more treble - instead of volume - to hear what you want to hear.

Physics dictates that as you increase volume in the room, treble (and bass) get louder faster, so maybe loud to you just means more treble or saturation of treble?

It’s hard to recommend based off what I quoted because I don’t know the preferences in your mind and ears. I don’t know why louder sounds better to you, so it’s hard to recommend a solution.

Just pointing out that with different pieces of gear, lower volumes sound “boring” - which I don’t know what that means. But with different things producing the same result, there has to be a common solution.

Have you played tube amps at loud volumes before? I don’t know your experience, therefore don’t know what previous experiences you’re chasing.

Maybe you’re used to a real cabinet throwing sound everywhere at loud volumes, reflecting off the room providing a more 3D sound compared to directional speakers at low volumes not doing that.

I just saw a distinct pattern and mentioned it in case something clicks in your mind with that pointed out.
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All of this. ^^^

The Fletcher-Munson curve in particular. I can make my FRFR speakers sound better than my Recto cabs just by offsetting the volume by a decibel or two. The Recto cabs get loud quick, so on first impression, the FRFR typically might sound like they can't keep up. "Boring" if you will.
 
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