Set lists and or just going choosing the right buttons through your set

C

Chrose1201

Inspired
Hey all. This forum has been tremendously helpful so far. I was about ready to pull the trigger on the FM3 and then this evil thought crept into my mind...I saw a Cooper Carter video on setlists and it sounded like the best solution. But then I thought since I don't have a tremendous variety in the songs my band does, that maybe I just go through my sets as is. Occasionally as you all know sets can change on the fly. I still have not gotten to the part of the OM that I printed where it really talks about the foot buttons. As I understand I can bring up my preset on the first button and then I have scenes on the second button. But in going through individual songs during a gig are you not still doing a dance with the preset and scene buttons? Click 5 times up, 2 to the left, etc? How do you get through a set with different options? I am hoping that is not the achilles heel in this.

Thanks!
 
I can’t see a use for the set list for the exact reason you mentioned - sometimes you need to adjust on the fly.

What my band does - both me and my bassist use FM3s - is we control the FM3 with MIDI sent via Bluetooth to a dongle that plugs into the MIDI ports. We use an app on our iPads called OnSong, wherein you can assign MIDI that gets triggered when you select a song.

So this means that when i select a particular song, it can switch presets, select the correct scene, turn on/off block(s), and adjust parameters ALL IN AN INSTANT. (NOTE: this also means I can use fewer presets since the MIDI can make one preset more versatile. For instance, if I have one song that I need the virtual capo to downtune a half step, and another that requires a full step and a drive pedal, and another that requires a half step and a drive pedal with more or less drive, this can all be programmed via MIDI so I don’t have to use 3 or 4 separate presets. That said, I don’t suggest FM3 users try to make full kitchen sink presets)

So, when someone requests a song that isn’t on our set list and we decide to do it, we just pull the song up on OnSong and the MIDI takes care of everything else. I’ll occasionally go several songs without needing to even use a foot switch. It’s glorious. EDIT: combine this with using per-preset footswitches on every preset and my sets are a fluid combination of versatility and automation. No other modeler comes close to this unit’s versatility (or sound).
 
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Describe how you use presets. A different one for each song? A few different tones?

You can use Layout Links so after you choose a preset it automatically changes to another layout, maybe your scenes.

Also what gear you’re using. Footswitch design with just the 3 switches on an FM3 is different than having an FC6 additionally for example.

Also you don’t have to keep presets and scenes separate on different layouts. Mix switch types to do what you need it to do.

Footswitch design is extremely unique to each player and without knowing what you and have do it’s hard to suggest anything meaningful.
 
I briefly tried using "setlists" a little over thirty years ago in a large, house band. The idea was that our show computer could just call up the patches for each song and even make some parameter changes on the fly. It seemed like a great idea but the reality quickly became too confusing and complicated.

Afterwards I ended up settling on the strategy that I have used ever since. I have a bread and butter bank for single coils, an identical bank tweaked for humbuckers, another for more esoteric effects, another for acoustic guitar and another for speciality effects. I can still experiment a little, bring some effects in and out but it only gets as complicated as I feel prepared to deal with.

Given the current state of the art in modelers, these days I usually end up settling down on just a couple of patches that are working well on a given night.
 
Ugly Bunny said:
I can’t see a use for the set list for the exact reason you mentioned - sometimes you need to adjust on the fly.

What my band does - both me and my bassist use FM3s - is we control the FM3 with MIDI sent via Bluetooth to a dongle that plugs into the MIDI ports. We use an app on our iPads called OnSong, wherein you can assign MIDI that gets triggered when you select a song.

So this means that when i select a particular song, it can switch presets, select the correct scene, turn on/off block(s), and adjust parameters ALL IN AN INSTANT. (NOTE: this also means I can use fewer presets since the MIDI can make one preset more versatile. For instance, if I have one song that I need the virtual capo to downtune a half step, and another that requires a full step and a drive pedal, and another that requires a half step and a drive pedal with more or less drive, this can all be programmed via MIDI so I don’t have to use 3 or 4 separate presets. That said, I don’t suggest FM3 users try to make full kitchen sink presets)

So, when someone requests a song that isn’t on our set list and we decide to do it, we just pull the song up on OnSong and the MIDI takes care of everything else. I’ll occasionally go several songs without needing to even use a foot switch. It’s glorious. EDIT: combine this with using per-preset footswitches on every preset and my sets are a fluid combination of versatility and automation. No other modeler comes close to this unit’s versatility (or sound).
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Wow...1670528547835.png Thanks, that will take some serious thought on my part :) Great answer thank you for your effort!
 
chris said:
Describe how you use presets. A different one for each song? A few different tones?

You can use Layout Links so after you choose a preset it automatically changes to another layout, maybe your scenes.

Also what gear you’re using. Footswitch design with just the 3 switches on an FM3 is different than having an FC6 additionally for example.

Also you don’t have to keep presets and scenes separate on different layouts. Mix switch types to do what you need it to do.

Footswitch design is extremely unique to each player and without knowing what you and have do it’s hard to suggest anything meaningful.
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Thanks Chris. I haven't actually gotten the FM3 yet. I am reading and trying to digest the manual and it all seems do-able and pretty impressive. Then last night as I was falling asleep a thought woke me back up.... I play in a southern rock (mostly) cover band. So a lot of my needs are simple. All the Skynyrd, Molly Hatchet type songs are pretty straight forward as are the Allman Bros songs which are all pretty much covered by the DS40 Gain knob. Then there's the Eagles which is a little more varied. All those songs are pretty classic 70's tone where you have a lot of body without a lot of OD type gain in the rhythm and then the solos can scream but without the metal type gain. Then you have the other odd men out where I go from Chuck Berry, to Johnny Winter to Hendrix in Johnny B Good! So that is a progression of OD. So for that song for instance I start off with the amp OD (Friedman DS40) hit my One Control Persian Green (TS808 clone) and the Phase 45 for JW, and then for Jimi, the Phase 45 goes off and the Xotic EP Booster and Dynacomp compressor are added along with the Friedman Golden Pearl that is mostly a volume boost and I can scream. Hotel California I need a nice clean and then a simple boost for the dual leads and a slight bit more dirt for the solo and dual leads at the end. My concern is not whether or not the FM3 can achieve all that of course it can and then some. Without having used it and this doesn't really show up in any of the videos I have seen is the actual foot dance in going back and forth from preset to preset. I hope this makes sense.
 
Ugly Bunny said:
Haha the Cliffnotes version is that, in my use-case scenario as a gigging musician who needs the option to change the set list up on the fly, MIDI is much more useful than the setlist feature. (The rest is just how exactly I accomplish that)
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I have never dealt with midi. Not sure I have the cells left in the grey matter to process this potential new wrinkle, but I am game to look into it :)
 
Chrose1201 said:
I have never dealt with midi. Not sure I have the cells left in the grey matter to process this potential new wrinkle, but I am game to look into it :)
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Gotcha. Yeah, I had no idea what I was doing initially. I got a Behringer FCB1010, my Axe Fx III, and started to learn MIDI all at the same time. That was a steep learning curve, but well-worth it, IMO. I mean, the FCB wouldn’t work without MIDI. Luckily, the Axe Fx’s (and therefore the FM3’s) MIDI implementation is idiot-proof. And unless you’re trying to do something REALLY fancy (like working with SYSEX messages and stuff), you really on need be concerned with two concepts: PCs and CCs. Anyway, I won’t fill up this thread here with that, but it might be worth learning depending on your goals with the performing/gigging.
 
I had setlist with external footswitch, but i went back to those 6 buttons with FM3. I use mainly three scenes, and with toggle option i use other 3 scenes if needed, usually for modulation of current "parent" scene. For me its just enough. I also have another layout for songs with dropped tuning ( E to D ). Which is activated with "press and hold" - funtion.

So, basically 8 scenes with in one preset, and controllerd easily with just FM3.

Edit: If someone is wondering why just not dedicate on button for Virtual Capo, i have found that best sound is to turn off Virtual Capo's Pitch Tracking for cleans, and with gain, i turn it on. Therefore i need own scenes for Drop-tunings, or at least two.
 
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I guess this all hangs on what your band plays. In a previous band I used two presets. The scenes were clean, edge, crunch, solo, and acoustic simulation. Effects could be kicked in and out as required. Nowadays I use one preset per song. The scenes cover things like Intro, Verse, Bridge, Solo, and Outro. Sometimes they change the guitar sound, sometimes they trigger changes in our lighting rig, sometimes both. I don’t have to tap dance, I don’t have to think about it. Horses for courses.
 
I still find the set lists feature useful even though I only really require a few different sounds for most of the songs and we never actually follow a set list. My presets are really just about getting different sounds and then I‘m using the set lists feature to organize them in a way that works for the particular band. I only have like 8 or 10 ”Songs” in each set, and a few of them are more like “kitchen sinkish” with sections that get me through most of the setlist. Then I’ll have a few more “actual” Songs that have sounds for a specific songs that don’t fit the other generic ones or require unusual combinations of sounds. I know I can do the same thing with presets/scenes, but the extra layer of abstraction is useful from an organizational perspective.

I do wish there was a footswitch function that allowed for banking through songs though as it would make this approach a bit easier. As it is, I never have more than 12 “Songs” to get thorough a particular band’s show so it works out just having pages in a ”songs” layout that just have the first 12 songs with a middle button hold taking me to a “sections” layout.

-Aaron
 
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aflynt said:
I still find the set lists feature useful even though I only really require a few different sounds for most of the songs and we never actually follow a set list. My presets are really just about getting different sounds and then I‘m using the set lists feature to organize them in a way that works for the particular band. I only have like 8 or 10 ”Songs” in each set, and a few of them are more like “kitchen sinkish” with sections that get me through most of the setlist. Then I’ll have a few more “actual” Songs that have sounds for a specific songs that don’t fit the other generic ones or require unusual combinations of sounds. I know I can do the same thing with presets/scenes, but the extra layer of abstraction is useful from an organizational perspective.

I do wish there was a footswitch function that allowed for banking through songs though as it would make this approach a bit easier. As it is, I never have more than 12 “Songs” to get thorough a particular band’s show so it works out just having pages in a ”songs” layout that just have the first 12 songs with a middle button hold taking me to a “sections” layout.

-Aaron
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Your approach caught my attention because I've recently been trying a very similar approach. When you say you have "pages in a "songs" layout, I'm assuming you mean you use the 4 views to setup one switch for each of the 12 possible songs? And each switch directly selects a given song?

I've created a sort of paging system as well, though there is a wrinkle.

I have a layout I called songs. It uses just one view. The three switches show the previous song, currently selected song and next song. Press and hold switch three and the switches change to display the next three songs (newly selected song on switch 2).

To do this, the switches are programmed as follows:
#1: song, increment -1, wrap, show destination name
#2: song, increment +1, wrap, show current name
#3: song, increment +1, wrap, show destination name
#3 HOLD: song, increment +3, wrap, show custom ">>>>"

Then, I program the layout link on each switch so when I select a song, it goes to my regular preset layout.

Here's the "issue". If the song I want is already the selected one, I just need to go to my regular layout without hitting the switch. You'll see that #2 above will change the song if I hit it, which I wouldn't want. If there was a choice to program the switch for "increment 0" then it would work great.

If anyone has an idea to "fix it" let me know. :)

Cheers!
 
NewWorldMan said:
Your approach caught my attention because I've recently been trying a very similar approach. When you say you have "pages in a "songs" layout, I'm assuming you mean you use the 4 views to setup one switch for each of the 12 possible songs? And each switch directly selects a given song?

I've created a sort of paging system as well, though there is a wrinkle.

I have a layout I called songs. It uses just one view. The three switches show the previous song, currently selected song and next song. Press and hold switch three and the switches change to display the next three songs (newly selected song on switch 2).

To do this, the switches are programmed as follows:
#1: song, increment -1, wrap, show destination name
#2: song, increment +1, wrap, show current name
#3: song, increment +1, wrap, show destination name
#3 HOLD: song, increment +3, wrap, show custom ">>>>"

Then, I program the layout link on each switch so when I select a song, it goes to my regular preset layout.

Here's the "issue". If the song I want is already the selected one, I just need to go to my regular layout without hitting the switch. You'll see that #2 above will change the song if I hit it, which I wouldn't want. If there was a choice to program the switch for "increment 0" then it would work great.

If anyone has an idea to "fix it" let me know. :)

Cheers!
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I’ve done just that, yes. 4 views, each with a song switch. I couldn’t wrap my brain around how to do it with the increment, but your method sounds like it may work. Unfortunately, I don’t know a way around your issue.

-Aaron
 
What I currently do is as follows (my setup is FM3 + FC6, plus a bunch of external buttons and XPDLs):

- my presets layout has bank buttons as well as buttons for all presets in the current bank, so at any time I can bank up or down easily and, once in the applicable bank, select the preset. One button changes the layout back to the preset layout, so once I’m in a preset (at which time my performance layout is typically showing, or sometimes FX layout or looper, etc) I can with one button get back to the preset layout

- some songs get their own preset, but for many I just use a ‘base’ preset that has a mix of clean to dirty tones and common FX. For medleys/segues I often put everything I need in one preset that covers them all

- before a gig, I arrange my presets into banks that correspond to the sets (which is easy/quick on the editor) - typically the first preset in the bank is the ‘base’ preset, and then the other presets in the bank get the presets for the songs in that set that have their own preset. If they don’t all fit into one bank, I put them in a 2nd consecutive bank

- usually I end up with 3 or 4 banks for a long gig (30+ songs)

- at the gig, if songs get moved, or we add a new song at the last minute, I either use the ‘base’ preset (which is always available from within the bank) or, if I need to use the song-specific preset, I’m never more than 2-3 banks away. I often navigate to the new bank while still playing the previous song, so once the previous song is over I just see et the preset for the new song (one button push) and I’m ready to go
 
I’ll add to what @Ugly Bunny says - I also use onsong on my iPad for controlling the FM3. In addition, I also put virtual post-it notes on the lyrics for special functions. For example, I typically use my guitar with a piezo for acoustic songs. However, if for some reason I’m using another guitar, I tap a post-it note that switches me to the acoustic sim patch. I have a number of these little post-it’s that I leave at the top of lyrics for tricks. (My only gripe is that I can’t make smaller post-it notes - it could be a cool “alternate” MIDI controller)
 
I've been using setlists for almost as long as I've used fractal since I use a LiquidFoot midi pedal. I have one page labeled "fun presets". In case of an audible or needing to fill time due to a technical issue with another person in the band , I select this and I have access to my "kitchen sink" preset as well as fun things like "blade Runner". Under normal situations, I just keep scrolling through the setlists all night long.
The one song idea really grabs me, but the other guys in the band are so used to our lyrics "program" that they didn't want to give it a shot.
 
Ugly Bunny said:
I can’t see a use for the set list for the exact reason you mentioned - sometimes you need to adjust on the fly.

What my band does - both me and my bassist use FM3s - is we control the FM3 with MIDI sent via Bluetooth to a dongle that plugs into the MIDI ports. We use an app on our iPads called OnSong, wherein you can assign MIDI that gets triggered when you select a song.

So this means that when i select a particular song, it can switch presets, select the correct scene, turn on/off block(s), and adjust parameters ALL IN AN INSTANT. (NOTE: this also means I can use fewer presets since the MIDI can make one preset more versatile. For instance, if I have one song that I need the virtual capo to downtune a half step, and another that requires a full step and a drive pedal, and another that requires a half step and a drive pedal with more or less drive, this can all be programmed via MIDI so I don’t have to use 3 or 4 separate presets. That said, I don’t suggest FM3 users try to make full kitchen sink presets)

So, when someone requests a song that isn’t on our set list and we decide to do it, we just pull the song up on OnSong and the MIDI takes care of everything else. I’ll occasionally go several songs without needing to even use a foot switch. It’s glorious. EDIT: combine this with using per-preset footswitches on every preset and my sets are a fluid combination of versatility and automation. No other modeler comes close to this unit’s versatility (or sound).
Click to expand...
Hey I’m interested in triggering my preset changes as I also use on song. Can you tell me what “ dongle” you use ?
 
I can't speak for Mr. Bunny but, I use the official Apple Camera Connection Kit (a dongle). DO NOT BUY anything but the official Apple CCK. The knockoffs don't work. The dongle has a lightning port that I use to power the iPad and other devices.

  • Apple CCK dongle is connected to 4-port USB hub.
  • Attached to the USB hub is a Zoom U-24 interface. The Zoom has 5-pin MIDI in/outs which I connect to the FM3 MIDI in/out. I also use the interface to play iPad synths and clips that route out of the U-24's 1/4" jack and go to our band's mixing board.
  • I also connect an Ampero Control 4-button MIDI footswitch to the hub.

The way it works is that the Ampero footswitch sends MIDI messages to OnSong. In OnSong, I've set it to recognize 4 buttons as Next Song/Previous Song/Scroll Up/Scroll Down to allow me to move through the lyrics in OnSong hands free. OnSong has a MIDI learn function for foot controllers. When you set up footswitches, you press a footswitch button and the event will display....then tell OnSong what you want that event to mean (next/previous/etc)

In OnSong, you long-press on the song title and set up MIDI messages that trigger when the song is displayed. The song titles send:
  • Program Change Event <bank and patch#> on channel 16 (which is what my FM3 is set to respond to)
  • Delay 400ms (to allow time for the FM3 to switch songs)
  • Control Event #34 <scene #> (to move to the right scene)

I've also created OnSong post-it notes that can also send MIDI messages to the FM3 for other functions.

While this sounds complicated, it's actually pretty simple.
 
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