Scene / rig output level balancing

[themikeaustin]

All,

I'm not a current Axe user, so I apologize if I'm not using the correct nomenclature. Here's my situation. I currently use a Headrush pedalboard. It's a very nice unit except for one glaring weakness, IMO. If I set up a "rig" with a Fender Twin and some pedals and set the amp volume to 7, it produces a certain output volume. If I then set up another rig, say a JCM 800, (with the same pedals and everything set the same), the output volume is much louder. This happens with many of the amp models. There is a way to balance the rigs' output levels, but it has to be done manually and it's a PITA. My question is whether the Fractal units suffer from the same deficiency. I've sold some gear and I'm open to selling my Headrush and getting an Ax8 - I don't want to buy a separate controller - but there's no point if the Ax8 suffers from the same problem as the Headrush.

TIA, and let me know if you need additional information.

Mike

 

[ChristThePhone]

You will have to level balance your presets on the AX8 as well. The reason being that the more distortion you add the more compressed your signal will be which requires you to fine tune your clean sound levels the cut through in a band context.

 

[Habuman]

^ To add from the above:

There is no global setting that will level/equal the output volume across presets. However, once you have built a preset that uses Scene Controllers on the amp and cab in conjunction with the amp mixer level will help make things easier to level/equal future presets. I just save a template and adjust from there. If you can build and test the preset(s) at your normal gig level will be very helpful.

 

[chris]

My question is whether the Fractal units suffer from the same deficiency.

if you take 2 real amps, set them to the same number settings, one will be louder than the other. i'd hope to never hear a real twin turned up to 7. the design of amps are not the same. since modelers model real amps, the differences in volume will also not be the same.

even within the same amp model, if you set the gain low, the level will be lower, and if you set gain higher, the level will be louder. this is just how amps work.

the Axe gear has VU meters built in so you can adjust the Amp Level parameter to balance things. it's very easy. but you have to do it because no amp modeler can "know" what level you want at various settings. maybe you want it louder for a boost. if the system limited volume you wouldn't be able to do that.

it's not a deficiency. it's how amps work, real amps and modeled.

 

[themikeaustin]

if you take 2 real amps, set them to the same number settings, one will be louder than the other. i'd hope to never hear a real twin turned up to 7. the design of amps are not the same. since modelers model real amps, the differences in volume will also not be the same.

even within the same amp model, if you set the gain low, the level will be lower, and if you set gain higher, the level will be louder. this is just how amps work.

the Axe gear has VU meters built in so you can adjust the Amp Level parameter to balance things. it's very easy. but you have to do it because no amp modeler can "know" what level you want at various settings. maybe you want it louder for a boost. if the system limited volume you wouldn't be able to do that.

it's not a deficiency. it's how amps work, real amps and modeled.

My first real amp was a Twin. I blew the Jensens and replaced them with JBL D-120s. I played it on 7 a few times - to compete with a plexi full stack - and my ears are still ringing.

I understand about real amps and how they work. I was wrong in my thinking about how the modelers worked. I thought they modeled the tonal characteristics of the amp (and pedals) at particular settings and produced an output (current? voltage?) that would then be sent to an amplifier, DAW, etc. I'm obviously not an electrical engineer, but I would think that the designers of the Axe, Helix, etc. units would strive to produce a consistent output level to make their products easier to use.

Thanks to all who responded. I appreciate it!

 

[chris]

I would think that the designers of the Axe, Helix, etc. units would strive to produce a consistent output level to make their products easier to use.

It’s definitely been a wish over the years. But consistent to... what? Again if it forced consistency you couldn’t ever turn up or down. It’s a tricky thing, but easy to handle once you’re used to it.

 

[themikeaustin]

It’s definitely been a wish over the years. But consistent to... what? Again if it forced consistency you couldn’t ever turn up or down. It’s a tricky thing, but easy to handle once you’re used to it.

My choice would be to have a default global output level that you could adjust for a given rig as desired. And, isn't the output just an electronic signal (voltage, current, ???)? I'm not an EE, but this doesn't seem like rocket science.

Again, unless I'm missing something obvious, these modelers are simulating the tone produced by the combined components of a rig and, IMO, this should not affect the volume. Yes, on an amp it will affect the volume, especially if you're adjusting the volume of any components of the signal chain, but that doesn't mean that the modelers have to. If your rig is using a Plexi and you adjust the volume from 4 to 7, are you doing it to make the volume louder or to change the simulated tone to sound like a Plexi on 7 rather than on 4?

Anyway, I guess it's a moot point. Thanks for your feedback and taking the time to respond. I appreciate it.
Mike

 

[chris]

If your rig is using a Plexi and you adjust the volume from 4 to 7, are you doing it to make the volume louder or to change the simulated tone to sound like a Plexi on 7 rather than on 4?

the Axe gear has a Master Volume parameter and a Level control in the Amp block. the Master Volume primarily changes the level of the Power Amp section which changes Power Amp distortion. This also changes the perceived level. To compensate for this, you would manually change the Level parameter.

it's been asked to make the Master Volume not change perceived level, but that was not implemented as many said it would be confusing if changing something called "Volume" didn't change the volume.

so sure, there is a "does it have to" thought about all of this, but for simplicity sake for understanding, MV changes perceived level. as with any block, change the Level to adjust the level as you make changes to other parameters. there's just too many parameters in many blocks that inherently change gain structure or level. changing mids on some amps increases level too. changing threshold in a Compressor changes level. should that be "normalized"? i personally don't think so. there's too much that our own minds determine as louder/not louder and i don't think a "normalize" algorithm could get it right. just my thoughts, but others have stated similar.