Scene Ignore feature - Discussion & How you use it

[biskitboy]

I like @Dave Merrill 's idea but it seems a bit convoluted to configure compared to normal scenes management, so I'd go even further and propose Scene Groups.

Imagine having two (or eventually more) sets of 8 scenes in a preset, which are independently selectable and for each block you can choose which scene group it responds to (or doesn't if scene group is set to none = scene ignore)

The above is how I would have wanted the scene ignore feature to work. Scene ignore just says ignore changes to this block in this particular scene. It’s currently preset wide. I would have preferred per-scene. The channel option, IMO, is not necessary with this change.

With the above change, you automatically get grouping within each scene AND the ability to bypass blocks preset wide.

I’m game for anything that addresses a grouping functionality. The above change would accomplish this.

Edit: I love my Axe III, this single feature is really the only hill I would die on. I’ve never wanted anything more from this box than this. I'd love to have some grouping ability. I’ll buy pizza for everyone at HQ. Promise.

 

[Dave Merrill]

I like @Dave Merrill 's idea but it seems a bit convoluted to configure compared to normal scenes management, so I'd go even further and propose Scene Groups.

Imagine having two (or eventually more) sets of 8 scenes in a preset, which are independently selectable and for each block you can choose which scene group it responds to (or doesn't if scene group is set to none = scene ignore)

Just to point out, Channel Groups and Bypass Groups are really simple to set up.

Any block can be assigned to one of (say) 15 channel groups or none, same for bypass groups, and a footswitch can change bypass state or channel on a specific block like it is today, or one of the 15 groups. Bypassing or changing channels on a group affects all blocks assigned to that group.

That's the whole deal, easy to understand and use, really powerful.

 

[biskitboy]

The above feature by @Dave Merrill fixes all the Workflow issues I have with scenes. All my real-life friends with Fractal gear all have this same issue, unfortunately, none are on the forum. I think the problem is they are all used to using big pedalboards with simple midi controllers. The controllers are single button push to change/engage a group of pedals. We have nothing like this today in the Axe, it's my only frustration with the unit.

IMO, Scenes should have always had the ability to select which blocks changes are applied to. We wouldn't have needed scene ignore then. This would have made Scenes effectively Groups. Albeit, limited to 8. I still prefer Dave's methodology because it is the most powerful of all the ideas I've seen.

 

[yek]

Now, when I want to change the amp sound I'm using in this preset I head over to the EFFECTS 2 page on my FC-12 and tap that AMP1 channel change switch until I'm on the core amp sound I want. All the scenes work as they did before, which are mainly special effect type scenes for me.

Configuring a foot controller is such a personal thing. For me, that configuration to switch amps wouldn't work, because it's too many taps away. I like having instant on/off at my feet, reason why I use a large controller.

 

[DLC86]

Just to point out, Channel Groups and Bypass Groups are really simple to set up.

Any block can be assigned to one of (say) 15 channel groups or none, same for bypass groups, and a footswitch can change bypass state or channel on a specific block like it is today, or one of the 15 groups. Bypassing or changing channels on a group affects all blocks assigned to that group.

That's the whole deal, easy to understand and use, really powerful.

My criticism was more towards the way we'd have to setup channel or bypass groups for switching multiple blocks.
If I get your idea a channel group basically can set all the blocks within that group to the same channel with a single footswitch, and it's convenient when you want 2 or more blocks to just follow along each other's channel.
The problem arises when you want those same blocks to land on different channels too though (let's say Amp:A and Cab:B), you'd have no way to do that with channel groups unless a channel can be simultaneously controlled by several groups or a group footswitch + a single channel block footswitch.
But all this leads to headache for me

On the other hand you could do both things with additional set(s) of scenes and in a more straightforward way imho

 

[Dave Merrill]

My criticism was more towards the way we'd have to setup channel or bypass groups for switching multiple blocks.
If I get your idea a channel group basically can set all the blocks within that group to the same channel with a single footswitch, and it's convenient when you want 2 or more blocks to just follow along each other's channel.
The problem arises when you want those same blocks to land on different channels too though (let's say Amp:A and Cab:B), you'd have no way to do that with channel groups unless a channel can be simultaneously controlled by several groups or a group footswitch + a single channel block footswitch.
But all this leads to headache for me

On the other hand you could do both things with additional set(s) of scenes and in a more straightforward way imho

Your totally right that both bypass and channel groups only help of you want so blocks in the group to do the same thing. For me that's a common wish, like turning on a drive before the shop, and at the same time, an EQ or volume block after the amp to compensate for the volume increase, then after that, change channels on both blocks together. Similarly, I like to turn on multiple mod and delay effects at once, maybe a drive too. These are coming scenarios for me.

But neither these groups or scene ignore helps if you want independent on/off or channels on the different blocks. The only FC-native way I know of for that is scenes. So yes, more scenes would be useful too

Just to say it though, careful planning of block channels can avoid some of, but not all, the need for separate control of each block's channels from a single switch.

 

[FullThrottle64]

Question:

If you have the same block set to Scene Ignore across two separate Presets, will changes to that block be ignored if you change Preset?

Put another way, if I have two Presets with the same Amp and Cab blocks, both set to Scene Ignore, will it change when I go from one of these Presets to the other?

 

[FullThrottle64]

Just to say it though, careful planning of block channels can avoid some of, but not all, the need for separate control of each block's channels from a single switch.

Yes.

When I saw that Scene Ignore was now present, at first I thought "Hey, wait a minute - there's no way to select a combination of amp and cab block channel with a single press, so how do I manage that?"

Then I went back to the basic premise of a separate Amp and FX rack; in "real life" I've never used two completely separate amps or cabinet types, so it should be manageable with just the amp block. I can run it just as if I was using a plain old 1960A with a multi-channel amp.....

 

[DLC86]

Your totally right that both bypass and channel groups only help of you want so blocks in the group to do the same thing. For me that's a common wish, like turning on a drive before the shop, and at the same time, an EQ or volume block after the amp to compensate for the volume increase, then after that, change channels on both blocks together. Similarly, I like to turn on multiple mod and delay effects at once, maybe a drive too. These are coming scenarios for me.

Yep, your groups idea would be useful in a lot of situation for sure.

Just to say it though, careful planning of block channels can avoid some of, but not all, the need for separate control of each block's channels from a single switch.

And this is true too.

But neither these groups or scene ignore helps if you want independent on/off or channels on the different blocks. The only FC-native way I know of for that is scenes. So yes, more scenes would be useful too

Exactly, but just to clarify, by "scenes goups" or additional sets of scenes I didn't mean to just increase the available number of scenes per preset, but to create 2 (or more) separate scene groups within a single preset (8+8) and that would cover your needs too

 

[iaresee]

If you have the same block set to Scene Ignore across two separate Presets, will changes to that block be ignored if you change Preset?

No. Across presets, it'll revert to whatever channel the initial scene that loads was saved to.

 

[chucma]

Configuring a foot controller is such a personal thing. For me, that configuration to switch amps wouldn't work, because it's too many taps away. I like having instant on/off at my feet, reason why I use a large controller.

Same here, I currently have an IA on Page 1 of my GT22 which I press once for the Amp channels, then the second press selects the channel and returns me back to Page 1 - so it is 2 taps to change the amp. I also have an IA per Scene (so 9 buttons in total if you add the Amp button).

I think I am going to change Page 1 to have 4 dedicated Amp Channel buttons, and then my 8 Scene buttons, so 12 in total. Then a dedicated button for tweaking less used effects on Page 2.

EDIT: And I think I'm going to have the Amp Channel IAs setup to enable/disable some effects as a hold function.

 

[DLC86]

Exactly, but just to clarify, by "scenes goups" or additional sets of scenes I didn't mean to just increase the available number of scenes per preset, but to create 2 (or more) separate scene groups within a single preset (8+8) and that would cover your needs too

To further expand on this I made this mockup to maybe give a better idea of what I mean:



See the two scene selector groups on the top left and see the block scene group selector in the bottom right corner where one can set which scene group a block belongs to: A, B or None (None=scene ignore)

 

[iaresee]

Configuring a foot controller is such a personal thing. For me, that configuration to switch amps wouldn't work, because it's too many taps away. I like having instant on/off at my feet, reason why I use a large controller.

Yea, having an RJM in my life certainly makes me want more from my FC. But the FCs are so dead simple to setup and use and so compact they do all the live use work for me.

But! You inspired me to at least use up more of the empty switches I have in my EFFECTS 2 page so I can make use of custom labels:

 

[FullThrottle64]

No. Across presets, it'll revert to whatever channel the initial scene that loads was saved to.

Crap. OK, this is going to require some thought....that sort of negates the whole premise that sent me to using a separate MIDI controller. It will still be easier to program, but....

My concern is the switching gap. Let's say that I'm running a high gain Amp (Channel D) in Preset 1 Scene 3, and need to got to Preset 2 Scene 7. I can program an IA to select Preset 2 then Scene 7, then Amp Channel D......but if P2/S7 was originally saved with a clean amp (channel A), will it give me an audible gap?

 

[iaresee]

will it give me an audible gap?

Yes. Preset changes always come with a small gap. No way around that.

 

[Reaper]

Configuring a foot controller is such a personal thing. For me, that configuration to switch amps wouldn't work, because it's too many taps away. I like having instant on/off at my feet, reason why I use a large controller.

Yes, that's why I'm waiting for the FC22!

 

[Admin M@]

I grew up in the hood. Terrible roach problems. Stomping, I wrote the book.

I grew up not far outside of Newark NJ. We used to wear "corner cock-a-roach killers".

 

[biskitboy]

To further expand on this I made this mockup to maybe give a better idea of what I mean:

<snip>

See the two scene selector groups on the top left and see the block scene group selector in the bottom right corner where one can set which scene group a block belongs to: A, B or None (None=scene ignore)

It sounds like you are proposing to have a new foot-switch button to select which scene group you want? If so, you could have Scene Groups ABCDEFGH (replacing 1-8 in your image). Then you just add blocks to the Scene Group. This would require a new Scene Group foot-switch option. This would work for me!

A poor-mans version of this is to just let the new scene-ignore feature apply at the block level. In each scene, you can select "scene ignore". That juts means, this block is ignored in THIS SCENE ONLY. Now your Scenes can be either Groups or Scenes. No new FC Buttons needed. I feel like we are inches away from this being available vs the other ideas floating around.

 

[DLC86]

It sounds like you are proposing to have a new foot-switch button to select which scene group you want?

Nope, what I'm proposing is to have two independent scene groups of 8 scenes each.
In every block you can select which group the block responds to (bottom right of the pic - A, B or None).
If you select B for example that means that block will ignore which scene of the group A is selected but instead will change channel and bypass state when you select a scene in group B.
Obviously that would need additional footswitch options, instead of having scene 1-8 we would have scene A1-A8 and scene B1-B8.

PS: Basically if (looking at the axe-edit mockup I posted) you press a scene select button under group B (aka the second array of scene buttons in the top-left of the screen) the only blocks that will change their channel/bypass state will be those that have B selected in the bottom-right of the screen

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

I grew up not far outside of Newark NJ. We used to wear "corner cock-a-roach killers".

I found out at his funeral that my grandfather was born in Newark and migrated down the shore to Brick, next door to my grandmother's family. Explains why she was always adamant we grandkids speak proper English (no "youse" was allowed) so that we didn't "sound like some goon from Newark"....