Recording two Bass channels

[Thenewexhibit]

All sounds good. Yeah i think direct to DI to interface will have less latency from the performance itself than direct to Axe and then to interface, so i reckon the best way to not get the DI late is to either run it DI box to interface or direct to Axe with Axe as aggregate. It's just that extra conversion happening between Axe and interface that isn't needed given that the Axe would be a perfect interface in this case.

Another great trick is do away with a bass amp altogether and blend the DI with a very midrangey guitar amp model and speaker that has no low end, but for the Macca style tones, you probably just want the amp tone alone without a DI. Interesting if we think about pre digital era recordings and phase when blending sources. Before hardware digital delay units existed to line up DIs and amps for analog recording, i suppose it was just a case of flipping phase and removing all the low end from one of the sources.

Thanks for the reply! My concern isn’t really latency, as computers and DAWs are pretty good now regarding buffers sizes and latency. My concern is the latency between Axe Fx bass DI and Axe Fx bass amp. Since the DI has no latency, it comes earlier obviously than the amp tone. If I took a DI before the Axe Fx, the DI would be even earlier than the amp tone, so it’s probably better to have the DI go through extra conversion for the sake of being closer in time, at least from a live performance standpoint. In a DAW, you can just realign them to be in perfect phase, which definitely makes a difference, but that’s why I was proposing as a wish list/dreaming of the idea that it would be cool if some kind of alignment tool could be added to the Axe Fx for this very purpose, perhaps in the output block with a visual alignment of some sort.

 

[jamesmarshall]

Thanks for the reply! My concern isn’t really latency, as computers and DAWs are pretty good now regarding buffers sizes and latency. My concern is the latency between Axe Fx bass DI and Axe Fx bass amp. Since the DI has no latency, it comes earlier obviously than the amp tone. If I took a DI before the Axe Fx, the DI would be even earlier than the amp tone, so it’s probably better to have the DI go through extra conversion for the sake of being closer in time, at least from a live performance standpoint. In a DAW, you can just realign them to be in perfect phase, which definitely makes a difference, but that’s why I was proposing as a wish list/dreaming of the idea that it would be cool if some kind of alignment tool could be added to the Axe Fx for this very purpose, perhaps in the output block with a visual alignment of some sort.

Then it is not a true DI anymore, period. In the real world the same thing happens between a di and mic'd bass amp.

 

[Thenewexhibit]

Then it is not a true DI anymore, period. In the real world the same thing happens between a di and mic'd bass amp.

I’m not following. Are you saying it’s not a true DI anymore because it’s going through the Axe Fx conversion; even though it’s not being processed by anything; just input straight to output?

Also, yes, this will happen in real life, although from my memory of recording bass in this manner, I don’t recall it being as much as the difference is in the Axe Fx (although it’s been a minute).

 

[jamesmarshall]

I’m not following. Are you saying it’s not a true DI anymore because it’s going through the Axe Fx conversion; even though it’s not being processed by anything; just input straight to output?

Also, yes, this will happen in real life, although from my memory of recording bass in this manner, I don’t recall it being as much as the difference is in the Axe Fx (although it’s been a minute).

No what I am saying is trying to do something else in the AX3 to line things up will make it not really a true DI anymore. You are "adding, something" to the signal, be it delay, or phase, or whatever is done, technically changes the signal and it is really not a DI anymore.

This is why keeping it as is, is best and will keep it as it would be if the AX3 isn't involved at all. The only thing the AX3 adds is the converter time (1-10 samples, usually, or 4.8 ms or less).

One way could be to add a cab block to the DI and use a neutral cab and move the "mic" until it lines up. Again this will no longer be a DI and you wouldn't want to use it to reamp if you needed, but you can line the signal up for exact phase.

 

[Thenewexhibit]

No what I am saying is trying to do something else in the AX3 to line things up will make it not really a true DI anymore. You are "adding, something" to the signal, be it delay, or phase, or whatever is done, technically changes the signal and it is really not a DI anymore.

This is why keeping it as is, is best and will keep it as it would be if the AX3 isn't involved at all. The only thing the AX3 adds is the converter time (1-10 samples, usually, or 4.8 ms or less).

One way could be to add a cab block to the DI and use a neutral cab and move the "mic" until it lines up. Again this will no longer be a DI and you wouldn't want to use it to reamp if you needed, but you can line the signal up for exact phase.

Now, are you saying if you just did a digital delay with no repeats and everything flat, that would affect the DI in a detrimental way that you’d actually be able to discern a difference between the DI with nothing on it in the Axe vs a digital delay with no repeats?

Even so, what I’m suggesting/proposing would be an awesome idea or addition in my opinion, which is literally the equivalence of what you can do in a DAW, but doing it in the Axe FX’s output block. All you’re doing is essentially adding latency to the DI signal in the measurement of samples to perfectly align both. I’m failing to see how an implementation like that would somehow affect the clean DI; it’s literally doing the same thing as a DAW, which in turn is just shifting the time of it on a sample basis, in my particular case at 48k, about 50 samples, which does indeed make a difference.

 

[beavis2306]

Is this why my bass tones have woody mids when recorded and but sound fine when both paths are summed in the middle? I had a look at the waveforms but i couldn't tell a difference by eye even zoomed in. I'd be very pleased if there was a simple answer to this

 

[empinchen]

Is this why my bass tones have woody mids when recorded and but sound fine when both paths are summed in the middle? I had a look at the waveforms but i couldn't tell a difference by eye even zoomed in. I'd be very pleased if there was a simple answer to this

Possibly. We'd need to see your setup / wave forms to know for sure.

 

[jamesmarshall]

Now, are you saying if you just did a digital delay with no repeats and everything flat, that would affect the DI in a detrimental way that you’d actually be able to discern a difference between the DI with nothing on it in the Axe vs a digital delay with no repeats?

Even so, what I’m suggesting/proposing would be an awesome idea or addition in my opinion, which is literally the equivalence of what you can do in a DAW, but doing it in the Axe FX’s output block. All you’re doing is essentially adding latency to the DI signal in the measurement of samples to perfectly align both. I’m failing to see how an implementation like that would somehow affect the clean DI; it’s literally doing the same thing as a DAW, which in turn is just shifting the time of it on a sample basis, in my particular case at 48k, about 50 samples, which does indeed make a difference.

Yes if you put anything in the chain, it is technically no longer a DI, period. A delay will affect the signal. Realize a Delay is not a signal bypass. every delay I have ever looked at has resistors and transistors in the signal path. This will change the signal even with no repeats. Sometimes even when you bypass an effect will still change the signal, whether you can hear it or not makes no difference. The point of a DI is to get a perfect bass instrument signal right from the guitar itself with nothing else touching it. Anything you want to do can be moved, changed, tweaked, or even destroyed once it is recorded. This gives you a chance to be able re-amp, and do other things with an untouched bass guitar direct input. ANYTHING you do to the signal before it technically hits tape/pro tools/etc will change it and it will no longer be a DI. Even adding in samples technically is changing it, since you are moving it in time and this can affect the phase with the amplified signal. This is why you record it and flip the phase when mixing, again, so that you don't change the signal before it is recorded. As I mentioned before during the analog days we would just play with mic placement to help line up the DI and mic'd amp sometimes placing it closer to the speaker than you would think, but it would align the signals when they hit tape. This way you adjust the mic'd signal and not the DI.

It is no different than sticking a delay on one side of stereo guitar DI so that one take is delayed by 4ms. This changes a number of things for that take, including how it would re-amp, and yes it might make it more "stereo" sounding, but you have now affected the phase in some form or fashion as well as added something to the recorded signal. The best way to handle something like this is to record both sides (guitars) unaffected and just straight DI with the wet signals as they are. You can always bump the signals by hand in the DAW to line them up if they are having phase issues, or you can use something like the bx_shredspread plugin to change things after you have it on tape. This way if you need to re-amp something for some reason it is as it should be and you can still adjust after the fact. Anything in chain changes something sometimes even in bypass. Bass guitar is even more sensitive to phase and timing than anything else in the mix, just because of how the low end waveforms are.

 

[Thenewexhibit]

Yes if you put anything in the chain, it is technically no longer a DI, period. A delay will affect the signal. Realize a Delay is not a signal bypass. every delay I have ever looked at has resistors and transistors in the signal path. This will change the signal even with no repeats. Sometimes even when you bypass an effect will still change the signal, whether you can hear it or not makes no difference. The point of a DI is to get a perfect bass instrument signal right from the guitar itself with nothing else touching it. Anything you want to do can be moved, changed, tweaked, or even destroyed once it is recorded. This gives you a chance to be able re-amp, and do other things with an untouched bass guitar direct input. ANYTHING you do to the signal before it technically hits tape/pro tools/etc will change it and it will no longer be a DI. Even adding in samples technically is changing it, since you are moving it in time and this can affect the phase with the amplified signal. This is why you record it and flip the phase when mixing, again, so that you don't change the signal before it is recorded. As I mentioned before during the analog days we would just play with mic placement to help line up the DI and mic'd amp sometimes placing it closer to the speaker than you would think, but it would align the signals when they hit tape. This way you adjust the mic'd signal and not the DI.

It is no different than sticking a delay on one side of stereo guitar DI so that one take is delayed by 4ms. This changes a number of things for that take, including how it would re-amp, and yes it might make it more "stereo" sounding, but you have now affected the phase in some form or fashion as well as added something to the recorded signal. The best way to handle something like this is to record both sides (guitars) unaffected and just straight DI with the wet signals as they are. You can always bump the signals by hand in the DAW to line them up if they are having phase issues, or you can use something like the bx_shredspread plugin to change things after you have it on tape. This way if you need to re-amp something for some reason it is as it should be and you can still adjust after the fact. Anything in chain changes something sometimes even in bypass. Bass guitar is even more sensitive to phase and timing than anything else in the mix, just because of how the low end waveforms are.

Got ya! I imagine delay pedals could change the tone because of resistors technically making it not a DI. Maybe the digital delay model in the Axe Fx at 100% mix but no repeats would impart something to it even though everything would be flat; I’m not sure.
None the less, I still think it would be a great idea if there was a type of auto latency compensation on a sample by sample basis on the output block of a DI channel; if a “ping” could be sent through with a side chain from the amp chain’s output block and then you could manually align the two with a visual aid, kind of like in the cab block. I think it would be a great feature because 50 samples makes a difference. This would be primarily for live use, but one less thing to think about in post production too, especially when making an album. Wether it’s technically no longer a DI because you latency compensated it’s signal coming out of the Axe Fx by 50 samples makes no difference to me. The darkglass amp does this with pre and post DI signals to make sure they’re aligned properly. The combined result matters to me personally, not the technicality of it.