Questions about MV and headroom

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Deadlifts_n_Riffs

Member
I’ve been playing a long time but haven’t had too many opportunities to crank up the MV to get power amp distortion.

I notice a couple of the AxeFxIII amps max out the headroom meter around 4 or so, and feel more controlled around 2-3 as long as there’s a bit of headroom left.

My question is, in the real world are people playing 5150s and DRs on 2-3? I grew up with the wisdom that pushing the power section is the secret sauce, but the only model I’ve had good results with was the SLO100, where the mids really come out.

On the 5150s and Mesas it feels like I lose some edge when I hit 6-7.

Maybe it’s because the meter doesn’t show anything beyond “no headroom”.

Maybe I don’t really have a question. I dunno.

Any pointers on integrating the MV into my patches? Mostly metal here.
 
On the Dual Recs and 5150s, outside the studio, never went above 2. Went to 4 or so for live playing, and for the studio turned it up a bit, but the preamps do most of the work and they’re deafening at that volume.
 
Deadlifts_n_Riffs said:
I’ve been playing a long time but haven’t had too many opportunities to crank up the MV to get power amp distortion.

I notice a couple of the AxeFxIII amps max out the headroom meter around 4 or so, and feel more controlled around 2-3 as long as there’s a bit of headroom left.

My question is, in the real world are people playing 5150s and DRs on 2-3? I grew up with the wisdom that pushing the power section is the secret sauce, but the only model I’ve had good results with was the SLO100, where the mids really come out.

On the 5150s and Mesas it feels like I lose some edge when I hit 6-7.

Maybe it’s because the meter doesn’t show anything beyond “no headroom”.

Maybe I don’t really have a question. I dunno.

Any pointers on integrating the MV into my patches? Mostly metal here.
Click to expand...

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/setting-the-master-volume.119903/
 
Deadlifts_n_Riffs said:
My question is, in the real world are people playing 5150s and DRs on 2-3? I grew up with the wisdom that pushing the power section is the secret sauce, but the only model I’ve had good results with was the SLO100, where the mids really come out.
Click to expand...
Some amps sound good with power distortion, and some amps don't sound good. And it is often style dependent.

For high-gain stuff, I typically don't want the power section doing very much in terms of distortion. But for edge of breakup tones, it can sometimes be nice.

For instance on a Dual Recto I'd never have the volume above 10 o'clock; either on the real amp or a model.
 
Deadlifts_n_Riffs said:
I’ve been playing a long time but haven’t had too many opportunities to crank up the MV to get power amp distortion.

I notice a couple of the AxeFxIII amps max out the headroom meter around 4 or so, and feel more controlled around 2-3 as long as there’s a bit of headroom left.

My question is, in the real world are people playing 5150s and DRs on 2-3? I grew up with the wisdom that pushing the power section is the secret sauce, but the only model I’ve had good results with was the SLO100, where the mids really come out.

On the 5150s and Mesas it feels like I lose some edge when I hit 6-7.

Maybe it’s because the meter doesn’t show anything beyond “no headroom”.

Maybe I don’t really have a question. I dunno.

Any pointers on integrating the MV into my patches? Mostly metal here.
Click to expand...

I have long wondered about this as well. I have a few of the amps modelled, and have owned some of the
others in the past, and it does sometimes feel like there is a discrepancy between how the Master works
in the Fractal and how it works on the actual amps. I feel like in the Fractal I run out of headroom considerably
faster than the real amps. Same goes for the NMV amps.

Not sure why this is. 🤔
 
la szum said:
I have long wondered about this as well. I have a few of the amps modelled, and have owned some of the
others in the past, and it does sometimes feel like there is a discrepancy between how the Master works
in the Fractal and how it works on the actual amps. I feel like in the Fractal I run out of headroom considerably
faster than the real amps. Same goes for the NMV amps.

Not sure why this is. 🤔
Click to expand...
For the amps I'm familiar with, I think it's the difference in SPL that I'm using when experimenting with the Axe FX. So I feel like it's more to do with how my ears work than the way the MV works. Getting the MV wound up to 4 on my Marshall 2203 is kind of "ear bleed" territory without a lot of load attenuation unless in a big open space with a bit of distance. And lots of load attenuation can also change the feel for headroom, especially with a "sub-optimal" attenuator like my old Marshall Power Brake. (Not going on any wish list anytime soon, even though I kind of know and love it! ;) )

My judgement on how much headroom I have left becomes impaired by that high SPL. Whenever I feel the Fractal seems unrealistic for MV headroom, I tend to crank up the FRFR volume in the room, and it feels like "authenticity" gets a lot better. Same goes for the NMV amps.

Liam
 
Here's a handful of random facts that vaguely relate to this:
  • Old amps without significant preamp distortion needed to be cranked to get higher levels of distortion. Think espeically the original things like Bassmans which weren't meant to distort.
  • Next thigs like the Plexi's and JCM800s and other "rock" amps could also benefit from being cranked. Sometimes for power tube distortion, sometimes for the Phase Inverter distortion that happened becuase the master volume was before the PI.
  • See: decades of conventional whisdom that "you have to get the tubes cooking"
  • Amps with lots of preamp gain available (5150, Rectiier, ENGL, etc) actually typically don't want power amp distortion. They get muddy and flubby. But not everone realizes that because
    • Aforementioned decades of conventional whisdom
    • It feels cool to crank them up
    • More Louder is More Gooder to our ears. Compare two sounds and it's very hard for the louder one not to sound better, even if it's worse once you volume match.
    • By the time these 100w amps are cranked, you can barely hear anything clearly anyway. You'd need a recording or something like an arena where you're standing a few hundred feet back to realize more louder not more better typically.
  • Mesa knew you shouldn't distort the power amp of their Dual Recitier Solo heads. That's why they released a Triple Rectifier at 150w. IT's not like that so it gets more louder, it's like that so it doesn't sound like a** when turned up loud.
  • Most high gain multi-channel amps have a Channel master/volume/post-gain/etc and a global master/output/volume/etc so even when you have them both high it might not be as high as it would be on a single volume amp. In the Fractal only one of these is typically exposed, and the other is at some fixed (possibly wide open) value. So It can be decieving comparing to anecdotal stories of how loud people turned their amps up. Did they turn it up to 6? Maybe. But did they turn it up to 6 with the channel volume at 9 or at 3 which is a huge difference.
 
I’m sooo old and boring — I just keep twisting knobs (settings) until I get what I seek. If unable to do so it’s usually time to try a different amp/IR…
 
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