Questions about modes

[blackmoreguitar]

I look at the fretboard as only a diatonic scale... meaning it's nuetral... the music you are playing with will determine if what you play on guitar will sound minor or major.

If I am playing the diatonic scale in the key of C, and its natural minor/aeolian... and I want to then play C Lydian.... all I have to do is move my diatonic patterns up 4 frets and then i am actually just playing the E natural minor scale.... and that is the same exact notes as C Lydian... however by making the root note E and placing emphasis on the E, this is what gives it the Lydian sound...

Whatever key you are playing the natural minor scale in, just move up 4 frets and then you will be in the relative Lydian mode.

Im pretty sure that is right.

I tested it out by recording a C note drone, and then playing E natural minor over that, and it sounded Lydian.

I agree that the notes of the C Lydian scale are the same as the notes in E natural minor but:

E is the major third of C so by emphasising the E you are not 'sounding Lydian'. The Lydian mode is a major scale with a sharp 4, which in the key of C is F sharp, the second of the E minor scale. I would therefore think that if I am playing over a C drone and want a Lydian sound that I would play a C major scale with a sharp 4. In my opinion trying to relate everything to the minor scale is simply wrong and will only confuse you.

 

[Once was Gearzilla]

This is a pitch axis technique. Satriani does this quite a bit. For example someone could play four bars in C Major, 4 bars in C Minor, 4 bars in C Phrygian, and 4 bars in C Lydian, and be playing around the pitch axis of C even though these modes reside in different overall Keys. The C minor/sixth mode is in the Key of E flat even though it fits in with the tonal center of C. The interval structure is what creates the flavor, and note selection reflecting that is what presents the modes of a given key. If someone moves the same interval structure two whole steps they are playing the same mode in a different key.

Revised to hopefully better describe the pitch axis.

 

[mwd]

I hope this topic is not over. I've said it in the past and I'll say it again. I think a music theory sub-section, on this forum, would be one of the most valuable things we could have. Outside of a Fractal of course. It's interesting, it's fun, it's beneficial. Thanks to the OP for bringing this up and thanks to everyone that has dumped a wealth of info on this post. Love to keep it going.

 

[joegold]

This time I'll try to address each of your own ideas individually.
Note: I've had to break this up into 2 posts.

If I am playing in the key of C, and of course I'm using C Aeolian/natural minor of the diatonic scale to improvise in....

If you're playing in a C Aeolian setting, i.e. the music is emphasising a Cm chord with C in the bass and you're using the following pitches to make your melodies - C D Eb F G Ab Bb, then yes, you could be in the what is called in legit theory books "the minor mode of the key of C", assuming that this Cm tonal centre is frequently being approached via a G7 chord.

I tend to prefer the term "the key of C minor" but in most theory texts both C major and C minor are said to be "the key of C", much to my dismay.

In the absence of the above mentioned G7 chords you're probably playing a modal vamp in C Aeolian rather than something "in the key of C minor".

Then say I want to throw in a few licks from the Lydian mode, since I am in the key of C I will need to use C Lydian...



So, to play C Lydian I am just going to move my C natural minor/aeolian up Two Whole steps and play E natural minor, because thats the same exact thing as playing C Lydian...

If you started in C Aeolian and wanted to switch to C Lydian then instead of using C D Eb F G Ab Bb over a Cm vamp you'd switch to C D E F# G A B over a Cmaj or Cmaj7 vamp.

If there is nobody else sounding out these chords then it's up to you to create the modal sounds by switching from the first scale to the next scale.

But in order for these to sound like modes with C as the final someone else needs to be playing a low C drone under your melodies.

If there is no bass note then it's up to you emphasise the notes of Cm and then Cmaj.

Otherwise your first scale might sound like you're in the key of Eb major or the F dorian mode or any other one of the rotations of the Eb major scale.

So when I was using C natural minor, C was my root note.... now im in C lydian and since its the same as E natural minor, E will be my root note as long as Im playing these Lydian licks, until I go back to the C natural minor I started with...

Yes, and no.

People mix up the terms "root", "tonic" and "final" all the time.

It's quite common, even among well trained musicians, but it's wrong.



A "root" is the note on which a chord is constructed usually according to some sort of predetermined intervallic formula.

E.g. Maj - 1 3 5 - So Cmaj is C E G, Dmaj is D F# A, Emaj is E G# B, etc.



The first note of a major or minor scale is called the "tonic".

The "tonic" of a key is also the "root" of the "tonic triad" of that key.

[Remember though that the concept of "key", as opposed to the concept of "mode", is also tied up with the harmonic convention of V7-I or V7-Im progressions.

In the absence of such V-I cadences it's usually more correct to refer to the major scale as Ionian and the nat min scale as Aeolian.

But most folks make the same mistake and I am being somewhat pedantic here.

Still, I've always thought it a good idea to know the terms I'm using as much as possible.



When you switch from C Aeolian to C Lydian you probably won't be in any "key" at all any more because G7-C cadences always impart a major key feeling, which is more closely associated in most people's ears (due to conditioning) with the C major scale rather than the C Lydian scale.

But as an improviser or as a composer you might decide to bring out the note F# on this I chord thereby sort of forcing a C lydian scale colour onto your I chord in C major.

Traditional classical music would never do this but in jazz and pop it's become fairly routine to use lydian instead of the major scale on I chords, as an effect.

But when you're "in C Lydian" the "root" is not E.

If you're really in C Lydian someone will be playing a low C and someone else is probably playing a Cma7 or Cmaj7#11 chord.

The "root" of that chord is C.

The "final" of the C Lydian scale is also C.

Most people call modal "finals" tonics these days even though it's wrong to do so most of the time, but people will usually know what you're talking about.

And as I said earlier lots of people mix up tonic and root so if you want to talk about the root of C Lydian it's C, not E.



The reason you're confused is because you think that the modal scales are modes of the major scale and that's a convenient way to look at them, because most people are familiar with the major scale.

But the truth is that the term mode refers to a modality of "the diatonic scale".

The definition of the diatonic scale is a scale with 5 whole tones and 2 semitones where the semitones are as far apart from each other as possible.

Every one of the Ecclesiastical modes is a mode of the diatonic scale.

The diatonic scale has no single first note or tonic.

It is the potential for 7 different tonics.



The diatonic scale also comes about by stacking 6 perfect 5th intervals and then transposing all the pitches into a single octave.

E.g. F C G D A E B becomes F G A B C D E or G A B C D E F or A B C D E F G, etc.



So although it's convenient to think of the modes as being derived from the major scale, it's not really true.

As a matter of fact, Ionian was one of the least utilised modes in Western European Art Music until a few years prior to Bach's time IIRC.

It wasn't until the Classical Period of WEAM that composers developed the tools of Tonal music, the V7-I cadence being chief among them.

I.e. These modal scales actually predate the major/minor scale/key system.

 

[joegold]

So is all of that correct?

See above.

And if so, then isn't playing in different modes the same as modulating, changing keys in mid song?

There might be what's called "a modulation" involved in that situation but that depends of the specifics of the actual music, basically on how long a duration you move away from your original tonal centre.

If the original tonal centre remains strong in the ear, your second mode might just be a temporary change of scale colour.

But if you stay there long enough the new modal tonic will become the primary tonal centre.

Yes, there is the notion in harmonic analysis of a primary key or tonal centre and secondary or temporary keys or tonal centres.



Take for example the progression of Herbie Hancock's simple modal tune, Maiden Voyage.

[Note that there are no V-I cadences in this progression.]

D7sus4 - F7sus4 - D7sus4 - F7sus4 - Eb7sus4 - Dbm13 - D7sus4 - F7sus4

Each chord lasts for 4 bars over a quasi Latin vamp.

FYI The scales involved are usually D mixolydian, F mixolydian, Eb mixolydian and Db dorian.



It's not really in any key at all, but the primary tonal centre is clearly the note D and some sort of a chord, in this case a sus4 chord, built on D associated with that "tonic" or "final".

[FYI In classical music they can't have a "key" associated with a sus4 chord because to them a sus4 chord is a dissonance requiring further resolution to some sort of a major or minor chord.

So Herbie's little simple tune is breaking all sorts of rules that exist in classical harmony.]



When the progression moves to F7sus4 is it really a full blown modulation?

Not really, because F7sus4 is placed in a weaker metrical position within the harmonic rhythm and doesn't last long enough for the ear to hear F as the new tonal centre.

In this type of modal tune, where harmonic progression rather than a simple drone is involved, each new chord is, yes, some sort of a "key" or "mode" change.

But that terminology, so associated with classical conventions, bogs down and doesn't really help to understand what's happening.

Think of this progression as a sequence of several different modal vamps.

It ends up being primarily centred on D because of the rhythmic placement of all of the D7sus4 chords and on their duration.

Well, I guess the lead guitar would be changing keys, but the rest of the band would stay in C natural minor right?

The guitar is changing scales from C aeolian to C lydian

The tonal centre is always C but the scale colour associated with that note is changing.

The chords, assuming somebody is playing chords, are probably changing from Cm7 to Cmaj7#11 too.

The "root" of both those chords is C.

The note E is more or less irrelevant to all of this unless the only way you know how to finger these scales on the guitar is based upon your familiarity with the fingering for C aeolian and E aeolian.

With more familiarity with more possible scale fingerings you'll eventually realise that it's probably more efficient to think of each scale that has C as its tonic as being akin to some sort of alteration to the intervals within the C major scale.

[It's not actually what's going on, but it is VERY helpful to conceive it in this way.]

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = ionian

1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 = dorian

1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 = phrygian

etc., etc.

Because playing e minor against c minor is what gives it the lydian sound?

If the band continues to outline Cm while you switch to C Lydian you'll be creating an instance of what is called bi-tonality and it will probably sound wrong to most listeners unless you're really good art manipulating things.

If there's just a C in the bass and no chords then when you switch from one scale to the other you are creating the sound of C aeolian moving to C lydian.

Again, the note E is irrelevant to any of this.

Most people, when they're first starting out and don't know that many scale fingerings would be thinking about moving major sales around, not aeolian scales.

C aeolian = Eb major starting on C with a C in the bass, but you're not "in the key of Eb major".

C lydian = G major starting on C with a C in the bass, but you're not "in the key of G major".

So if the only fingerings you know are for the major scale, it's often easier to get started with all of this by simply changing from one major scale fingering for one mode to another major scale fingering for the next mode, etc.

But eventually you'll have to deal with each modal scale according to its own intervallic structure and not simply its fingering on the guitar.

Am I onthe right trains of thought here?

Still hard to tell.

 

[Once was Gearzilla]

@joegold

Those are some great explanations.

Could you also please share some knowledge on the pentatonic scales in relation to the modes?

 

[unix-guy]

@joegold - thanks for sharing some of your (obviously) expansive theory knowledge!

I wish I had more time to really take a deep dive into all of this stuff.

 

[joegold]

@joegold

Those are some great explanations.

Could you share some information on the pentatonic scales in relation to the modes?

Hmm.
Well... A pentatonic sale is just a 5-note scale.
Technically, any pitch collection of 5 notes can be used as a pentatonic scale.

But the most common one is the major pentatonic whose intervallic formula is 1 2 3 5 6.
It can be thought of as a 5-note subset of the 7-note (heptatonic) major scale with all of the prime dissonance (min 2nds, tritones) removed.
So it is a very stable consonant sound that can be appropriate in all sort of harmonic settings.
But the major pentatonic scale actually predates the major scale by thousands of years and is the most common scale in most cultures across the planet.

It can be thought of as a series of 4 P5th intervals reduced to a single octave.
E.g. C G D A E becomes C D E G A
Ancient musicians and theorists, like Pythagoras, were always exploring what happens when P5ths were stacked on top of each other as a way to explore increasing numbers of pitches that are harmonious with each other, because of the way that P5ths appear within the harmonic overtone series.
FYI The chromatic scale started out as a series of 11 P5ths.

The most common rotation or mode of the maj pent is the familiar minor pentatonic scale.
E.g. C D E G A becomes A C D E G (1 2 b3 4 5 b7 from A).

There is another pentatonic scale commonly referred to as a minor pentatonic too and its formula is:
1 2 b3 5 6
It's basically a maj pent with b3.
E.g. C D Eb G A

What else would you like to know about pentatonic scales?

 

[joegold]

@joegold - thanks for sharing some of your (obviously) expansive theory knowledge!

I wish I had more time to really take a deep dive into all of this stuff.

You're quite welcome.
I've just read some books on the subject is all.
I'm a bit of a pedantic control freak too.
Too bad knowing all this crap doesn't automatically make you a great player. lol

 

[joegold]

Again...
I highly recommend The Chord-Scale Theory And Jazz Harmony (one book btw) by Nettles and Graff.
Basically it's the Berklee harmony course in book form.

 

[mwd]

A famous composer was asked why he consistently broke the rules of music theory. He answered ‘I love the rules… they are my humble servants’.

 

[unix-guy]

The most common rotation or mode of the maj pent is the familiar minor pentatonic scale.
E.g. C D E G A becomes A C D E G (1 2 b3 4 5 b7 from A).

That 2 is a typo, correct?

Cool info on how the pentatonic originated!

Any info you would like to share on the major hexatonic scale? I recently read that this scale was created by stacking the notes of a major triad with the notes of a minor triad one step higher.

For example, in C you would have:

Cmaj: C E G
+
Dmin: D F A

C D E F G A

Is that correct?

 

[Once was Gearzilla]

Hmm.
Well... A pentatonic sale is just a 5-note scale.
Technically, any pitch collection of 5 notes can be used as a pentatonic scale.

But the most common one is the major pentatonic whose intervallic formula is 1 2 3 5 6.
It can be thought of as a 5-note subset of the 7-note (heptatonic) major scale with all of the prime dissonance (min 2nds, tritones) removed.
So it is a very stable consonant sound that can be appropriate in all sort of harmonic settings.
But the major pentatonic scale actually predates the major scale by thousands of years and is the most common scale in most cultures across the planet.

It can be thought of as a series of 4 P5th intervals reduced to a single octave.
E.g. C G D A E becomes C D E G A
Ancient musicians and theorists, like Pythagoras, were always exploring what happens when P5ths were stacked on top of each other as a way to explore increasing numbers of pitches that are harmonious with each other, because of the way that P5ths appear within the harmonic overtone series.
FYI The chromatic scale started out as a series of 11 P5ths.

The most common rotation or mode of the maj pent is the familiar minor pentatonic scale.
E.g. C D E G A becomes A C D E G (1 2 b3 4 5 b7 from A).

There is another pentatonic scale commonly referred to as a minor pentatonic too and its formula is:
1 2 b3 5 6
It's basically a maj pent with b3.
E.g. C D Eb G A

What else would you like to know about pentatonic scales?

I'm familiar with diatonic modes,scale degree, and building chords and I'm familiar with Major and Minor Pentatonic. My understanding for better or worse is that a pentatonic scale doesn't function as a tonal center.
Is pentatonic improvisation within a tonal center as simple as just staying within underlying modal structure as a subset of the notes? I know someone can always add notes outside for effect.

I'll grab a look at that book. I don't want to absorb too much of your time.

 

[joegold]

That 2 is a typo, correct?

Oops. Right.
Shoulda' been "1 b3 4 5 b7 starting on A".

Cool info on how the pentatonic originated!

Any info you would like to share on the major hexatonic scale? I recently read that this scale was created by stacking the notes of a major triad with the notes of a minor triad one step higher.

For example, in C you would have:

Cmaj: C E G
+
Dmin: D F A

C D E F G A

Is that correct?

I've actually got quite a lot of experience with hexatonics and triad pairs having initially studied them via correspondence with the late (and great) Charlie Banacos.

A hexatonic scale is just a 6 note scale.
Combining the notes of any two standard tertian triads or non-tertian tricords with no common tones will result in a 6-note scale.

More later maybe. gotta go.

 

[joegold]

I'm familiar with diatonic modes,scale degree, and building chords and I'm familiar with Major and Minor Pentatonic. My understanding for better or worse is that a pentatonic scale doesn't function as a tonal center.
Is pentatonic improvisation within a tonal center as simple as just staying within underlying modal structure as a subset of the notes? I know someone can always add notes outside for effect.

I'll grab a look at that book. I don't want to absorb too much of your time.

A maj or min (both types) pentatonic scale could be used to establish a tonal centre of sorts if the music stayed firmly within just those 5 notes, but they're usually not used exactly like that.
In cultures where the indigenous music is totally based on pentatonic scales and where there is little or no use of the entire diatonic scale then to the extent that this music exhibits the feeling of a tonal centre I think we'd have to say that tonal centre WAS a function of the usage of that scale. No?

In jazz and popular music the most common ways that pentatonic scales are used for melody or improvisation are on chords in which all 5-notes of the pentatonic scale do not create any "avoid notes" on the chord-of-the-moment.

Examples, from the C major scale:

On Cmaj7, as Imaj7 in the key of C, it is common to use the C maj pent and the G maj pent scales.
C is the root, D is the 9th (an "available extension"), E is the 3rd, G is the 5th and A is the 13th (another available extension on this chord).
Both these pentatonics can be seen as subsets of the C maj scale.
The other pentatonic that exists within the C maj scale pitch collection is the F maj pent scale.
But the note F, if emphasised on Cmaj7, creates a rub (an "avoid note") with the chord's 3rd, E, which is usually voiced below the F, creating a b9 interval or a b2. E-F
So F maj pent is usually not an appropriate choice over Cmaj7 unless you're trying create some sort of unsettled dissonant effect.

Implicit in the above is that every major scale contains 3 maj pentatonic scales within it.
There's a pent on I IV and V.
Lots of guitar players coming from rock tend to see these as min pentatonic scales (the 1st type I mentioned earlier) on II, III and VI.
E.g. C maj pent = A min pent
F maj pent = Dmin pent
G maj pent = E min pent

On Dm7, as IIm7 in the key of C major, it is common to use F maj pent, C maj pent and G maj pent.
Those scales are arranged in order of most Dm7-ish to least Dm7-ish.
I.e. The F maj pent scale, aka the D min pent scale can be thought of as an arpeggio of Dm7(add4).
The other two pent scales have fewer chord tones and more extensions.

On Em7, as IIIm7 in the key of C major, the only maj pent scale scale that can be derived from the C maj scale that doesn't contain any avoid notes is the G maj pent aka E min pent.
But this chord is often functioning as Cmaj9/E so it's not uncommon to apply the C maj pent on this too even though the C note creates a rub with the B in the chord below.
But the note F is pretty harsh on this chord if emphasised.

On Fmaj7, as IVmaj7 in the key of C, all 3 maj pent scales work.
The order of in-to-out is the same as the order of the pents on Dm7.
Note that using G maj pent on Fmaj7 brings in the note B which is a #11 on Fmaj7, the characteristic note of the lydian scale.
It's fairly common these days to apply a lydian scale colour on Imaj7 chords too so another option on Cmaj7 in this key is to use the D maj pent scale even though it brings in a note, F#, that is foreign to the key.

On G7, as V7, the usual suspect is just G maj pent because the note C tends to create a rub with the chord's 3rd, B.
But if the chord is G7sus4 all 3 maj pents will sound strong.
B-C is a b9 or a b2 which is quite dissonant.
But if the C is below the B, as it would be in a G7sus4 with a B played above it as a melody note, the interval is C-B is a maj 7th which is much less dissonant.
On G7sus4 the extension B is usually enumerated/labeled as "add10" (or sometimes "add17" believe it or not).
E.g. "G7sus4(10)" or "G7sus4(addB)", etc.

On Am7, as VIm7 in C, the usual suspects are C maj pent, aka A min pent and G maj pent.
F maj pent doesn't work so well because F is an avoid note on this chord since it clashes with the chord's 5th, E.

On Bm7b5, as VIIm7b5 in C, the only maj pent from the C scale that doesn't contain the avoid note, C, is the G maj pent.

One real easy thing to take away from this is that the min pent scale from the chord's root will work on ANY min chord you ever have to play over and the maj pent scale from the chord's root will work on most maj chords you ever encounter.
Getting familiar with then idea that on most maj7 chords a maj pent from the chord's 5th is usually a cool sound is a good idea too.

The harmonic minor scale and its modes do not contain any maj pentatonic scales.
The mel min scale has a maj pent on its 5th degree. E.g. C mel min contains all the notes of F maj pent.

But the other really common way that pentatonic scales are used in jazz and popular music is in the blues.
I.e. It's quite common to use A min pent aka C maj pent on a blues progression that is in the key of A major rather than A minor.
And in this application you will see avoid notes being employed more or less with abandon.
Although this is a really common sound that everybody knows how to play it's actually sort of tricky to justify theoretically and brings in all sorts of concepts like modal interchange and bi-tonality.
I don't have time to get into that today.

Hope that helps.

 

[Facemelter]

Joe Gold... the fingerings that I know on the guitar are these....

The seven three note per string shapes of the diatonic scale. And if im playing that against chords that make it minor I know to get the relative major by moving it three frets. I understand ionian is just a word that means major and aeolian means minor.

I know how to play the melodic minor scale, and I know how to play the harmonic minor scale and I know how to play the pentatonic blues scale.

I can play all of those in any keys.

I like music like jason becker and vinnie moore.

But I have been wanting to be able to play Lydian mode so that I can also sound more like joe satrani and steve vai.

And I think dorian and phyrigian would also be useful in darker metal, especially phyrigian.

I don't know, learning harmonic minor scale was easy to me to learn and start composing with... but it seems like doing the same with these modes is way more complicated for some reason.

I don't understand why learning lydian mode has to be harder than it was to learn the harmonic minor scale for example, but it definitely seems to be.

I am also wondering too, just how often do satriani and vai use Lydian? Because it seems like in order to use it, you are limited to a one chord vamp or drone in the background for the entire time you are in Lydian. So what if satriani made a cd where all ten songs used nothing but the lydian mode for every note of every song? Would that be able to sound good, and sound different, even though the backing chords were so simple and monotonous?

Are all the modes equally as hard to learn and compose with as the Lydian, or is Lydian harder for some reason?

 

[joegold]

Oops. Right.
Shoulda' been "1 b3 4 5 b7 starting on A".



I've actually got quite a lot of experience with hexatonics and triad pairs having initially studied them via correspondence with the late (and great) Charlie Banacos.

A hexatonic scale is just a 6 note scale.
Combining the notes of any two standard tertian triads or non-tertian tricords with no common tones will result in a 6-note scale.

More later maybe. gotta go.

Here's a pdf I put together way back when that list all of the possible tertian triad (maj, min, dim, aug) pair types that can be created as well as some suggestions for their usage in improvisation.
Hope it makes sense.

 

[joegold]

Joe Gold... the fingerings that I know on the guitar are these....

The seven three note per string shapes of the diatonic scale.

That approach to scale fingering on the guitar is quite useful especially if your goal is to run up and down the scale very quickly.
But *thinking* that way on the fretboard actually obscures many of the things i've been talking about here.
For jazz improvisation I think that William Leavitt's "position playing" concept as detailed in his books, A Modern Method For Guitar Vols 1-3, is more robust.
It makes it easier to *see* how the notes of one scale can morph into the notes of some other scale you're interested in simply by altering the intervals in the original scale the way I've been describing.
The down side of his approach is that many of his scale fingerings will be harder to execute, especially if speed is your main goal, and there's 12 fingerings for every scale so you might be overwhelmed for a while.
In the meantime try playing these scales on piano.

And if im playing that against chords that make it minor I know to get the relative major by moving it three frets. I understand ionian is just a word that means major and aeolian means minor.

As I explained earlier, that's not entirely correct.
Although the C major scale and the C ionian mode use the same pitches they are different IDEAS and they are used differently.
Ditto for aeolian and natural minor.

I know how to play the melodic minor scale, and I know how to play the harmonic minor scale and I know how to play the pentatonic blues scale.

I can play all of those in any keys.

I like music like jason becker and vinnie moore.

But I have been wanting to be able to play Lydian mode so that I can also sound more like joe satrani and steve vai.

And I think dorian and phyrigian would also be useful in darker metal, especially phyrigian.

I don't know, learning harmonic minor scale was easy to me to learn and start composing with... but it seems like doing the same with these modes is way more complicated for some reason.

I don't understand why learning lydian mode has to be harder than it was to learn the harmonic minor scale for example, but it definitely seems to be.

I am also wondering too, just how often do satriani and vai use Lydian? Because it seems like in order to use it, you are limited to a one chord vamp or drone in the background for the entire time you are in Lydian. So what if satriani made a cd where all ten songs used nothing but the lydian mode for every note of every song? Would that be able to sound good, and sound different, even though the backing chords were so simple and monotonous?

Are all the modes equally as hard to learn and compose with as the Lydian, or is Lydian harder for some reason?

I think that if you ever get a chance to talk with Joe Satriani he's likely to tell you that there are no shortcuts.
Once you understand that G lydian and D major are the same pitch collection the goal becomes discovering ALL the ways you might finger these scales on the guitar.
During that process you'll also learn to HEAR those scales and the various intervallic possibilities within them.
Once you know that THEN you'll be in a much better position to explore various ways to USE those scales musically.

Good luck.

 

[Once was Gearzilla]

A maj or min (both types) pentatonic scale could be used to establish a tonal centre of sorts if the music stayed firmly within just those 5 notes, but they're usually not used exactly like that.
In cultures where the indigenous music is totally based on pentatonic scales and where there is little or no use of the entire diatonic scale then to the extent that this music exhibits the feeling of a tonal centre I think we'd have to say that tonal centre WAS a function of the usage of that scale. No?

In jazz and popular music the most common ways that pentatonic scales are used for melody or improvisation are on chords in which all 5-notes of the pentatonic scale do not create any "avoid notes" on the chord-of-the-moment.

Examples, from the C major scale:

On Cmaj7, as Imaj7 in the key of C, it is common to use the C maj pent and the G maj pent scales.
C is the root, D is the 9th (an "available extension"), E is the 3rd, G is the 5th and A is the 13th (another available extension on this chord).
Both these pentatonics can be seen as subsets of the C maj scale.
The other pentatonic that exists within the C maj scale pitch collection is the F maj pent scale.
But the note F, if emphasised on Cmaj7, creates a rub (an "avoid note") with the chord's 3rd, E, which is usually voiced below the F, creating a b9 interval or a b2. E-F
So F maj pent is usually not an appropriate choice over Cmaj7 unless you're trying create some sort of unsettled dissonant effect.

Implicit in the above is that every major scale contains 3 maj pentatonic scales within it.
There's a pent on I IV and V.
Lots of guitar players coming from rock tend to see these as min pentatonic scales (the 1st type I mentioned earlier) on II, III and VI.
E.g. C maj pent = A min pent
F maj pent = Dmin pent
G maj pent = E min pent

On Dm7, as IIm7 in the key of C major, it is common to use F maj pent, C maj pent and G maj pent.
Those scales are arranged in order of most Dm7-ish to least Dm7-ish.
I.e. The F maj pent scale, aka the D min pent scale can be thought of as an arpeggio of Dm7(add4).
The other two pent scales have fewer chord tones and more extensions.

On Em7, as IIIm7 in the key of C major, the only maj pent scale scale that can be derived from the C maj scale that doesn't contain any avoid notes is the G maj pent aka E min pent.
But this chord is often functioning as Cmaj9/E so it's not uncommon to apply the C maj pent on this too even though the C note creates a rub with the B in the chord below.
But the note F is pretty harsh on this chord if emphasised.

On Fmaj7, as IVmaj7 in the key of C, all 3 maj pent scales work.
The order of in-to-out is the same as the order of the pents on Dm7.
Note that using G maj pent on Fmaj7 brings in the note B which is a #11 on Fmaj7, the characteristic note of the lydian scale.
It's fairly common these days to apply a lydian scale colour on Imaj7 chords too so another option on Cmaj7 in this key is to use the D maj pent scale even though it brings in a note, F#, that is foreign to the key.

On G7, as V7, the usual suspect is just G maj pent because the note C tends to create a rub with the chord's 3rd, B.
But if the chord is G7sus4 all 3 maj pents will sound strong.
B-C is a b9 or a b2 which is quite dissonant.
But if the C is below the B, as it would be in a G7sus4 with a B played above it as a melody note, the interval is C-B is a maj 7th which is much less dissonant.
On G7sus4 the extension B is usually enumerated/labeled as "add10" (or sometimes "add17" believe it or not).
E.g. "G7sus4(10)" or "G7sus4(addB)", etc.

On Am7, as VIm7 in C, the usual suspects are C maj pent, aka A min pent and G maj pent.
F maj pent doesn't work so well because F is an avoid note on this chord since it clashes with the chord's 5th, E.

On Bm7b5, as VIIm7b5 in C, the only maj pent from the C scale that doesn't contain the avoid note, C, is the G maj pent.

One real easy thing to take away from this is that the min pent scale from the chord's root will work on ANY min chord you ever have to play over and the maj pent scale from the chord's root will work on most maj chords you ever encounter.
Getting familiar with then idea that on most maj7 chords a maj pent from the chord's 5th is usually a cool sound is a good idea too.

The harmonic minor scale and its modes do not contain any maj pentatonic scales.
The mel min scale has a maj pent on its 5th degree. E.g. C mel min contains all the notes of F maj pent.

But the other really common way that pentatonic scales are used in jazz and popular music is in the blues.
I.e. It's quite common to use A min pent aka C maj pent on a blues progression that is in the key of A major rather than A minor.
And in this application you will see avoid notes being employed more or less with abandon.
Although this is a really common sound that everybody knows how to play it's actually sort of tricky to justify theoretically and brings in all sorts of concepts like modal interchange and bi-tonality.
I don't have time to get into that today.

Hope that helps.

Thanks a bunch. That is exactly what I was asking about. I've never seen it explained in that much detail before. Awesome. That helps my understanding a lot. Thanks again!

 

[joegold]

Just so you guys who tend to play your scales using the 3-notes-per-string approach can understand this a bit better here are some 3-notes-per-string fingerings for C ionian, C lydian and C aeolian.
For C lydian I will not be invoking the G major scale fingering as such and for C aeolian I will not be invoking Eb major.

We'll start on the A string, 3rd fret 1st finger and do a full 2 octaves ending on the 1st string at the 8th fret.
The Arabic numbers in parentheses denote the finger used.
An s next to a number indicates a finger stretch.
I will not be listing the fret numbers.
Hopefully, you all know how to find these notes on the fretboard yourself.

C Ionian aka C major - intervallic formula 1 2 3 4 5 6 7:
A string: C(1s) D(2) E(4) [scale degrees 1 2 and 3]
D string: F(1s) G(2) A(4) [scale degrees 4 5 and 6]
G string: B(1) C (2) D(4) [scale degrees 7 1 and 2]
B string: E(1) F(2) G(4) [scale degrees 3 4 and 5)
E string: A(1) B(3) C(4) [scale degrees 6 7 and 1]

C lydian = 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
A string: C(1s) D(2) E(4) [scale degrees 1 2 and 3]
D string: F#(1) G(2) A(4) [scale degrees #4 5 and 6]
G string: B(1) C (2) D(4) [scale degrees 7 1 and 2]
B string: E(1) F#(3) G(4) [scale degrees 3 #4 and 5)
E string: A(1) B(3) C(4) [scale degrees 6 7 and 1]

C Aeolian aka C natural minor - intervallic formula 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7:
A string: C(1) D(3) Eb(4) [scale degrees 1 2 and b3]
D string: F(1s) G(2) A(4) [scale degrees 4 5 and 6]
G string: Bb(1s) C (2) D(4) [scale degrees b7 1 and 2]
B string: Eb(1s) F(2) G(4) [scale degrees b3 4 and 5)
E string: A(1) Bb(2) C(4) [scale degrees 6 b7 and 1]

For the purposes of comparison here are the fingerings for the same scales ala William Leavitt's position-playing technique, in Position VII.

C ionian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
E string: C(2) D(4) - degrees 1 and 2
A string: E(1) F(2) G(4) - degrees 3 4 and 5
D string: A(1) B(3) C(4) - degrees 6 7 and 1
G string: D(1) E(3) F(4) - degrees 2 3 and 4
B string: G(2) A(4) - degrees 5 and 6
E string: B(1) C(2)

C lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
E string: C(2) D(4) - degrees 1 and 2
A string: E(1) F#(3) G(4) - degrees 3 #4 and 5
D string: A(1) B(3) C(4) - degrees 6 7 and 1
G string: D(1) E(3) - degrees 2 and 3
B string: F#(1) G(2) A(4) - degrees #4 5 and 6
E string: B(1) C(2)

C aeolian - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
E string: C(2) D(4) - degrees 1 and 2
A string: Eb(1s) F(2) G(4) - degrees b3 4 and 5
D string: Ab(1s) Bb(2) C(4) - degrees b6 b7 and 1
G string: D(1) Eb(2) F(4) - degrees 2 b3 and 4
B string: G(2) Ab(3) - degrees 5 and b6
E string: Bb(1s) C(2)
[Yes, there ARE "easier" ways to play this scale in this area of the fretboard.
E.g. In Pos VIII.
But this fingering has it's merits too.
Ultimately there are 12 position fingerings for each of these scales and IMO having some familiarity with them all can only help with your understanding of the fretboard.

Hope that helps somebody somewhere.

PS
If you can do all of these scales in Position VII there's no reason not to be able to do them in any position or every position.
Leavitt's thing, once you understand how finger stretches work and can be applied, is VERY thorough and totally logically consistent which is why I prefer approaching things his way.