Question about live sounds with the FM9

M

Mark Wein

Inspired
Do you guys find that the louder the gig is the brighter your tone gets? I know about Fletcher Munson curves and whatnot but one thing that I've been finding is that on my cover gig (which is WAY too loud for the venues we play in, but its not my band) my tone with the volume cranked about halfway up on the unit running through my EV PXM12 speaker and through the house PA seems to be super bright compared to what I'm used to, even when I was using my FM3 for the last year's worth of shows. I've got it sounding pretty glorious at high volumes but at home, and at lower volumes it's really dark. I have a bunch of shows in bigger venues with great house systems coming up and I'm starting to second-guess myself a little bit. I never get rehearsals for most of these shows so I'm kind of flying by the seat of my pants and while folks loved my FM3 sound on those gigs next week starts my first batch of shows with that band with the FM9.

Might just all be in my head. 🤷‍♂️
 
If it were me, it would depend on the amp model or preset, whether it had lots of clean headroom, or distorted earlier on.

Perhaps as one increases their master volume and lowers the gain, clean headroom contributes to a brighter amp. It actually may be only a perception of brighter...does the amp sound warmer or woolier at higher volumes? Or does the amp produce higher midrange and treble?

As was said, I think a lot of this has to do with what amp model one chooses, whether they use a compressor, or drive effect. FTR, I've found that most time-based effects (modulation like reverb and delay) have less effect on clean headroom that non-time-based ones (drive, etc.)
 
This seems to be the general rule. When I mix music and take it into the car, everything is bass heavy at low volume. Once its up to good, rocking out volume everything becomes balanced as it should be. My FAS stuff in general is far more inspiring melting faces at a gig than in my AirPods. Never sounds bad to me, but I need volume to hear everything clearly.
 
Mark Wein said:
my tone with the volume cranked about halfway up on the unit running through my EV PXM12 speaker and through the house PA seems to be super bright compared to what I'm used to, even when I was using my FM3 for the last year's worth of shows. I've got it sounding pretty glorious at high volumes but at home, and at lower volumes it's really dark.
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The sound being overly bright at stage volume is an indicator that the volume was too low when the EQ was initially set for the preset.

Also the sound being dark at lower volumes makes sense too as our ears are more sensitive to mids at lower volume.

From the Wiki…
When tweaking tone at low volume levels, a player often turns up treble and bass. This is what the "Loudness" switch on older home stereo systems did.

When the volume is turned up, those high and low frequencies get harsh and boomy. That guitar sound then competes with cymbals, and will lose. Also, the guitar competes with the bass guitar, and will lose.
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You didn’t say, but what EQ setting are you using in the EV, and in what position is the cabinet? The “Monitor 2” setting with the unit on the floor is the flattest frequency response. The “Tripod Mode” and “Monitor 1” are more scooped which will also make the speaker sound brighter at higher volume.

Also, on the FOH board make sure your feed is flat.
 
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Don’t forget there are also variable room/venue effects. Stage and sub-flooring, room geometry, what the walls are made of…. All can noticeably affect tone in addition to F-M. I usually have to dial BMT and P a little differently for each room/situation. Learning to use the front panel is indispensable for that.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
The sound being overly bright at stage volume is an indicator that the volume was too low when the EQ was initially set for the preset.

Also the sound being dark at lower volumes makes sense too as our ears are more sensitive to mids at lower volume.

From the Wiki…


You didn’t say, but what EQ setting are you using in the EV, and in what position is the cabinet? The “Monitor 2” setting with the unit on the floor is the flattest frequency response. The “Tripod Mode” and “Monitor 1” are more scooped which will also make the speaker sound brighter at higher volume.

Also, on the FOH board make sure your feed is flat.
Click to expand...
I am using the "monitor 2" setting on the EV.

I've been building presets at ridiculous volumes (ask my wife and neighbors) but I'm starting to wonder if it has more to do with the PA in the venue I've been playing at the last two weeks. They have QSC K series speakers flown from the ceiling and the room is brick and concrete. Super loud. I'm playing at an Elks lodge this week and then the week after a House of Blues, The Whisky a GoGo in Hollywood and a bigger venue in South OC with a great sound system so I'm trying not to get too freaked out and make giant changes before I get to the nicer playing environments.

I play in a few different situations but the one I work in the most is a bit of a clusterfuck sonically so I'm trying to take that into account, too.
 
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Have you tried your FM3 presets with the FM9? If they sounded better, maybe use them for at least your core amp tone.

You can also use the Global Output EQ to make quick adjustments to compensate for EQ issues at the venue. It's easy to get to, SETUP>GLOBAL>Out 1 (2,3 and4) EQ, it's come in handy on occasion for me.
 
Mark Wein said:
I am using the "monitor 2" setting on the EV.

I've been building presets at ridiculous volumes (ask my wife and neighbors) but I'm starting to wonder if it has more to do with the PA in the venue I've been playing at the last two weeks. They have QSC K series speakers flown from the ceiling and the room is brick and concrete. Super loud. I'm playing at an Elks lodge this week and then the week after a House of Blues, The Whisky a GoGo in Hollywood and a bigger venue in South OC with a great sound system so I'm trying not to get too freaked out and make giant changes before I get to the nicer playing environments.

I play in a few different situations but the one I work in the most is a bit of a clusterfuck sonically so I'm trying to take that into account, too.
Click to expand...
The QSC K series are great speakers that provide quality sound reinforcement. (Am hoping to swap out my HR FRFR108s someday for some CP8s.)

Sorry to hear about the cluster****...perhaps don't wear the paisley tie when you play...it may not make a difference sonically, but at least you'll know why people think the tie is the issue...either that, or stop watching too much Colbert...🤣
 
JoKeR III said:
Have you tried your FM3 presets with the FM9? If they sounded better, maybe use them for at least your core amp tone.

You can also use the Global Output EQ to make quick adjustments to compensate for EQ issues at the venue. It's easy to get to, SETUP>GLOBAL>Out 1 (2,3 and4) EQ, it's come in handy on occasion for me.
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I started with my FM3 sounds but it actually sounded better to rebuild them on the FM9 for some reason. Looking back it might have just been the device setup was different but I really love the tones (both sonically and feel-wise) that I'm getting from the fm9.

I'll check out the global output EQ tonight when I get home!
 
bleujazz3 said:
The QSC K series are great speakers that provide quality sound reinforcement. (Am hoping to swap out my HR FRFR108s someday for some CP8s.)

Sorry to hear about the cluster****...perhaps don't wear the paisley tie when you play...it may not make a difference sonically, but at least you'll know why people think the tie is the issue...either that, or stop watching too much Colbert...🤣
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It's funny because most venues around here (and the music conservatory that I teach at) have the QSC K series speakers (it might have to do with QSC being headquartered here in OC) but the band's PA is all RCF speakers. Part of me wants to get a pair of QSC's just to be able to tune my rig to them. My own PA has an old set of Mackie SRM450 speakers and they are the WORST for guitar.
 
Mark Wein said:
It's funny because most venues around here (and the music conservatory that I teach at) have the QSC K series speakers (it might have to do with QSC being headquartered here in OC) but the band's PA is all RCF speakers. Part of me wants to get a pair of QSC's just to be able to tune my rig to them. My own PA has an old set of Mackie SRM450 speakers and they are the WORST for guitar.
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Yeah, the K series are the crème de la crème, save for things like Xitone or CLR...Not many guitarists on this forum provide accolades for Mackie...they may be acceptable for vocal or keyboard (a stretch) PA, but guitar? Nope.
 
bleujazz3 said:
Yeah, the K series are the crème de la crème, save for things like Xitone or CLR...Not many guitarists on this forum provide accolades for Mackie...they may be acceptable for vocal or keyboard (a stretch) PA, but guitar? Nope.
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The Mackies were fine when I bought them over a decade ago but the technology has improved so much in recent years that they have fallen behind. I just never use my own PA enough to justify replacing them.
 
Mark Wein said:
It's funny because most venues around here (and the music conservatory that I teach at) have the QSC K series speakers (it might have to do with QSC being headquartered here in OC) but the band's PA is all RCF speakers. Part of me wants to get a pair of QSC's just to be able to tune my rig to them. My own PA has an old set of Mackie SRM450 speakers and they are the WORST for guitar.
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Which RCF are you guys running? IF you're running the RCF series I was looking at, the QSC are less than 1/2 the price which I think is a major reason you see them so many places. I'll also add that QSC has AMAZING customer service...I can't think of anyone else who gives a 6 year warranty if you register your enclosures with them.
It seems as if many people running sound have lost way more high end than my ears have...which isn't great.
 
Mark Wein said:
I am using the "monitor 2" setting on the EV.
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Good.

From what I can tell you've got your methodology down.

Mark Wein said:
I've been building presets at ridiculous volumes (ask my wife and neighbors) but I'm starting to wonder if it has more to do with the PA in the venue I've been playing at the last two weeks. They have QSC K series speakers flown from the ceiling and the room is brick and concrete. Super loud.
Click to expand...
It's always a possibility it's the venue.

I played at one venue ONCE that was running FOH at 106 dB in a small-ish room. It was TOO fricken' loud; At that volume my ears were distorting so I couldn't hear, even with plugs in.

Mark Wein said:
I'm playing at an Elks lodge this week and then the week after a House of Blues, The Whisky a GoGo in Hollywood and a bigger venue in South OC with a great sound system so I'm trying not to get too freaked out and make giant changes before I get to the nicer playing environments.
Click to expand...
The Elks lodge I used to play at had a decent stage and room, but the FOH system wasn't especially good and the "engineer" was so-so. The other places are sure to have excellent sound and maybe talking to their FOH person and explaining your concern will help. A good engineer wants everyone to sound good because it's better for the venue, they make money, and get return business.

The global EQ for whichever OUT you're using for the FOH send is your ace in the hole. You can always adjust it during setup and sound check.

Mark Wein said:
I play in a few different situations but the one I work in the most is a bit of a clusterfuck sonically so I'm trying to take that into account, too.
Click to expand...
That's never any fun. We have a nice club near me that has a reasonable size room with a good PA, and a dedicated engineer, and it's nice to walk in, set up, and know they got it covered. Conversely, when they haven't got a clue it's truly a disappointing, frustrating, experience.
 
Mark Wein said:
I am using the "monitor 2" setting on the EV.

I've been building presets at ridiculous volumes (ask my wife and neighbors) but I'm starting to wonder if it has more to do with the PA in the venue I've been playing at the last two weeks. They have QSC K series speakers flown from the ceiling and the room is brick and concrete. Super loud. I'm playing at an Elks lodge this week and then the week after a House of Blues, The Whisky a GoGo in Hollywood and a bigger venue in South OC with a great sound system so I'm trying not to get too freaked out and make giant changes before I get to the nicer playing environments.

I play in a few different situations but the one I work in the most is a bit of a clusterfuck sonically so I'm trying to take that into account, too.
Click to expand...
Hey Mark. A couple speakers on sticks in a place like an elks lodge is always going to sound different than a nice system. What I do is keep the amps tone controls on the performance page and pepper from there if I hear anything funky.

I want to play the Whiskey some day. Just to say I did.
 
Bruce Sokolovic said:
Hey Mark. A couple speakers on sticks in a place like an elks lodge is always going to sound different than a nice system. What I do is keep the amps tone controls on the performance page and pepper from there if I hear anything funky.

I want to play the Whiskey some day. Just to say I did.
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Yeah. I play a lot of different venues and situations so I get that. It was just a strange couple of weeks and I get a little weirded out because I was finally able to hear the FOH sound from on stage.

I used to play in Hollywood a lot in the 90's and early 2000's but it doesn't really pay well so I hadn't played any of those venues in DECADES when I got this gig. This is the second time I've been back to the Whisky and the last time before that was in 1997. It's fun to stand on those staged like the Roxy and the Whisky and think about historic shows or bands that played there. At the end of the day they are just more loud rooms, though,



Greg Ferguson said:
Good.

From what I can tell you've got your methodology down.


It's always a possibility it's the venue.

I played at one venue ONCE that was running FOH at 106 dB in a small-ish room. It was TOO fricken' loud; At that volume my ears were distorting so I couldn't hear, even with plugs in.


The Elks lodge I used to play at had a decent stage and room, but the FOH system wasn't especially good and the "engineer" was so-so. The other places are sure to have excellent sound and maybe talking to their FOH person and explaining your concern will help. A good engineer wants everyone to sound good because it's better for the venue, they make money, and get return business.

The global EQ for whichever OUT you're using for the FOH send is your ace in the hole. You can always adjust it during setup and sound check.


That's never any fun. We have a nice club near me that has a reasonable size room with a good PA, and a dedicated engineer, and it's nice to walk in, set up, and know they got it covered. Conversely, when they haven't got a clue it's truly a disappointing, frustrating, experience.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I think the overwhelming consensus is that I need to use my global EQ more. Most of my gigs don't have sound checks, though. It's literally "plug it in, make sure its passing signal and go" for many of them. Going Fractal and having QSC Touchmix with saved mixes and monitor mixes makes it easier but it's not very conducive to adjustments in each venue. At least the bigger gigs that I do with other bands get actual soundcehcks with professional FOH and monitor people.
warlockII said:
Which RCF are you guys running? IF you're running the RCF series I was looking at, the QSC are less than 1/2 the price which I think is a major reason you see them so many places. I'll also add that QSC has AMAZING customer service...I can't think of anyone else who gives a 6 year warranty if you register your enclosures with them.
It seems as if many people running sound have lost way more high end than my ears have...which isn't great.
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I think that they are the Art 7 series based on the website. They sound great and are incredibly light (a concern at my advanced age :p)
 
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