Pros and cons of effects between amp and cab blocks

[waylander69]

Hi
So after 6 years I have finished the construct of my man cave / studio
This means things that I have collected over the last 20 years are coming out of storage

First I added the axe FX2 in the effects loop of my fm3
Then I decided to use my marshal jmp1936 cab

Rig routing is - fm3 output 1 /matrix 800 channel A / matrix Frfr 212
FM3 output 2 - Axe FX 2 /matrix 800 channel B/ marshal jcm 1936

I have started using output 2 tapped from between amp and cab on most presets
However a couple of presets have stereo effects post cab

Since in the real world effects would be pre amp or in the effects loop, this made me wonder
Why on amp modellers do we insist on a layout of effects, amp , cab, effects output

Are there any negatives have effects such as delay, chorus or reverb between amp and cab blocks
Since I am using a Frfr cab and a guitar cab if I need to tap output 2 after any stereo effects post amp

Cheers
G \../

 

[unix-guy]

Why on amp modellers do we insist on a layout of effects, amp , cab, effects output

Who is insisting?

That routing is typical of a studio environment where ambient effects are often added in post rather than as a part of the guitar rig itself.

You can run most typical post cab affects post amp and pre cab with very little (if any) tonal change. Only distortion (speaker drive) in the cab would make a change for delay or reverb, for example.

 

[Moke]

What @unix-guy said above, with the additional comment that there could be issues with stereo to mono collapsing and the accompanying possible phase issues, depending on how the Cab block is setup.

But generally speaking, there isn't really any sonic advantage to placing typical 'post' effects before the Cab block. There are a few exceptions.

• Sonically... pitch shifted harmonies can sound more natural between the Amp and Cab as the filtering in the Cab IR smooths out any unnatural EQ added from the shifting process.
• Routing... Having the Cab (stereo if needed?) at the end of the chain make it easier to add a tap point just before the Cab block for a separate Output block to run to a traditional Cab.

 

[waylander69]

Hi
Thanks for your experience chaps

@unix-guy "insist" was maybe the wrong word in my comment and what I should have used was " commonly " which you answered beautifully.

@Moke your routing thought to a trad cab is what I'm aiming for since I have a Marshal JCM1936 "spare" wanted to see how I could combine it with a Frfr 212 cab that I've been using for the last 10 years with my fxii then later when I upgraded to a fm3,

One thing that initiated this thought of 2 off 212 cabs was to maybe do stereo effects so now you guys have confirmed that there's no common problems for post effects between amp and cab rather than after the cab I'll continue having fun with my extra speaker

Cheers
G \../

 

[Greg Ferguson]

"Position of the Cab block on the grid" talks about "the rules" for placing the Cab block, or conversely, which blocks can go before the cab block, and its affect on their sound.

"Reverb block position on the grid" is useful reading too.

And then there's…

"Sonically speaking, the main reason to care about PRE vs. POST is that a given effect will sound different when placed BEFORE or AFTER your amp’s preamp—the place where distortion occurs. How does this difference sound? If you’ve ever switched the sequence of traditional DRIVE and WAH pedals, you’ve heard an excellent example. In the case of wah before overdrive, the resonant filter of the wah “excites” the overdrive in a cool way while still retaining a natural overall tone. When the wah follows distortion, you might hear a more dramatic filtered sweep—with heavy distortion it can get almost synth-like—which might be considered less “classic.” It’s not surprising then that Wah would traditionally be a run as a “PRE” effect between guitar and amp. The amp’s distortion follows the wah effect. Many other effects fall in this same category. A different example is found in overdrive with reverb and delay. In the natural world, reverb and echo occur because of open spaces around your guitar amp – like a club or concert hall. These effects would therefore NOT be heard before a distorted amp, but after it. Recording studios often add these kinds of effects at the console—after the mic has picked up the distorted sound from the guitar amp. If you wanted to simulate this natural sounding reverb or delay these effects would likely be run “POST.” This is not to say that delay or reverb before distortion is a “no-no.” Many “legendary” tones came from echo units in front of an amp—but this effect is very different from “POST” delay—not only tonally, but also in terms of dynamics. The good news is that the FX8 allows you to experiment easily and find what combinations of pre- and post-effects work best for you. Creativity begins where tradition ends."

 

[Cainer]

If you're doing recording with it rather than solely playing, it's often really useful to avoid adding any delays/reverbs until the mixing stage (i.e. in your DAW). Even if you get a killer delay or reverb tone recorded, once you start compressing, mixing, etc, it can either disappear or become too prominent. Also if you want to edit the parts, it can become a pain as the reverb or delay will suddenly/unnaturally stop where you make the edit. If you keep your tones bone-dry on recording and rely on your DAW to add the reverb/delay, you'll avoid this. Also if you end up double-tracking guitars sometimes the reverb/delays can start getting a little smeary / cluttered and the takes can be glued together better if you record them dry and route them to the same 'verb/delay FX bus in your DAW.

Although sometimes you can just say F-it commit to a sound come what may - am I keeping my options open, or am I paralyzing myself with too many choices? lol The Fractal 'verbs are really nice so it's sometimes a tough choice.