Problems with thin tone

[laxu]

Here's a setup for going to poweramp and real guitar cab:

• Make a new preset from scratch.
• Add IN1 -> Amp -> OUT2 blocks.
• Reset the channels in each block first to make sure it is truly at default settings.
• Pick your preferred amp model.
• Go to the Setup menu.
• In I/O set Output 2 configuration to LINE LEVEL. Set Mode to COPY L->R. I use the +4 dBu setting for level. Make sure Output 2 Copy is set to NONE.
• Make sure in global settings that Output 2 EQ type is set to OFF.
• Turn up the OUT2 volume knob on the FM3.

Now you should be all set. You can use the meters screen found in Home to evaluate the input and output levels coming in and going out from the FM3.

This should give you a working setup that should sound at least acceptable. If not, then maybe try different cables or something.

 

[Will Chen]

@kai_p

I revisited this today. If you want a beefier tone using the same setting in the LT vids, rather than his "2" IR try the 4X12 TV 160 E factory IR.

 

[kai_p]

Dear all, thank you very much for the incredible amount of help and replies you sent, it is really nice to see that the community here is so supportive! I really appreciate that.

With the hints, I partially solved the issue I would say. First, I found out that my headphones are boosting treble frequencies much more than I expected, and using a parametric EQ I was able to substantially improve the sound. The reason why the videos I watched sounded good via the same headphones in contrast to using the FM3 was, I believe, that the headphone amp in my computer strongly cuts off treble frequencies. So to sum this up, I think the thin sound via headphones was maybe a not so easy to diagnose but now fixable (via EQing) problem. Sorry I simply misjudged the situation I think and was not aware of the technical properties here.

I also tried your hints on EQing the signal going into the amp, and considered your notes on pickup influence by trying my different quitars. As you have mentioned this indeed can make a much bigger difference than I expected, e.g. removing muddy bass while getting the tone warmer at the same time if done right.

In the end, I think, a good combination of pre amp EQ and post cab sim EQ might lead to a really good tone. Also, the bright cap value seems to have an extreme effect, maybe for my equipment (guitar, headphones) I simply have to user lower values than the default ones. And maybe I should get some proper monitor speakers.

Sadly I did not have time in the last days to check all your hints, but at least I would consider the sound via headphones issue solved in principle.

That leaves the sound via solid state amp + guitar cab to be improved, I'll try this in the next days using the new knowledge I gained. I am pretty confident now that I can fix it in the end.

Again thanks for the help to all of you, amazing community here!

 

[kai_p]

@kai_p

I revisited this today. If you want a beefier tone using the same setting in the LT vids, rather than his "2" IR try the 4X12 TV 160 E factory IR.

Thanks, this is indeed a good sounding IR for me, and your comment made me have a more detailed look in the cab models list in the wiki, there seem to be further interesting ones there!

 

[kai_p]

By now I mostly solved my sound issues I would say. Since it maybe helps other unexperienced FM3 users like me, I would like to summarize what seems to be the solution in the end.

The main point is to realize that all parts of the signal chain have some effect, and in the end everything has to be balanced and matching to achieve really good results. For example, for my guitar cab with V30 speakers to sound good, it is important that the impedance curve in the amp block is configured in a way that matches the actual speaker behavior in a reasonable way. Also, as for my headphones, I found out that my solid state power amp seems to have some deviation from flat frequency response, which has to be considered.

I found that - besides of course drive + bass/mid/treble controls in the amp - what affects the sound to the largest extent are: pickup characteristics, bright cap value, presence/depth, negative feedback, impedance curve, physical headphone or solid state power amp characteristics, and of course IR or real speaker behavior. In the end, as I said, all of this colors the sound and has to be balanced.

What was especially hard for me in the beginning were the interdependencies between certain parameters. For example, the amount of negative feedback affects the extent to which the impedance curve influences final frequency response - and this is also e.g. correlated to the amount of presence. Hence, changing the impedance curve behaves very different for amps with low/high values of negative feedback. Analogously if you change negative feedback, you also have to consider compensating the effect on frequency response using other measures, e.g. via EQing or adapting the impedance curve. My problem was that I was frustrated because I tried to achieve a good final result by tweaking too few parameters and gave up, since I did not know how to bring all the necessary parameters in balance.

I have to admit that the complexity of the FM3's possibilities was a real challenge for me, but it's getting better now. This simply is not a "turn on, set drive + volume level and forget" device, and there certainly is a learning curve to it.

What would really help me, since I do not have trained ears like an audio professional to easily relate sound impression to frequency, would be a spectrum analyzer as I suppose the "realtime analyzer" block is. Sadly this is only available on the Axe FX. As a feature request, I would strongly suggest to add this to the FM3 if possible, I cannot really imagine that this is not possible according to processing power. This would be very helpful I think.

 

[Will Chen]

By now I mostly solved my sound issues I would say. Since it maybe helps other unexperienced FM3 users like me, I would like to summarize what seems to be the solution in the end.

The main point is to realize that all parts of the signal chain have some effect, and in the end everything has to be balanced and matching to achieve really good results. For example, for my guitar cab with V30 speakers to sound good, it is important that the impedance curve in the amp block is configured in a way that matches the actual speaker behavior in a reasonable way. Also, as for my headphones, I found out that my solid state power amp seems to have some deviation from flat frequency response, which has to be considered.

I found that - besides of course drive + bass/mid/treble controls in the amp - what affects the sound to the largest extent are: pickup characteristics, bright cap value, presence/depth, negative feedback, impedance curve, physical headphone or solid state power amp characteristics, and of course IR or real speaker behavior. In the end, as I said, all of this colors the sound and has to be balanced.

What was especially hard for me in the beginning were the interdependencies between certain parameters. For example, the amount of negative feedback affects the extent to which the impedance curve influences final frequency response - and this is also e.g. correlated to the amount of presence. Hence, changing the impedance curve behaves very different for amps with low/high values of negative feedback. Analogously if you change negative feedback, you also have to consider compensating the effect on frequency response using other measures, e.g. via EQing or adapting the impedance curve. My problem was that I was frustrated because I tried to achieve a good final result by tweaking too few parameters and gave up, since I did not know how to bring all the necessary parameters in balance.

I have to admit that the complexity of the FM3's possibilities was a real challenge for me, but it's getting better now. This simply is not a "turn on, set drive + volume level and forget" device, and there certainly is a learning curve to it.

What would really help me, since I do not have trained ears like an audio professional to easily relate sound impression to frequency, would be a spectrum analyzer as I suppose the "realtime analyzer" block is. Sadly this is only available on the Axe FX. As a feature request, I would strongly suggest to add this to the FM3 if possible, I cannot really imagine that this is not possible according to processing power. This would be very helpful I think.

Personally...I think you are massively overcomplicating things. I think starting off especially if you're not familiar with a bunch of amps and speaker types, auditioning some factory presets and use those as templates is going to be the quickest way to good tones.

If you want to start from scratch, you really need to have an IR you are familiar with. At that point, you'll know in about 5 seconds whether the amp IR combo works and shouldn't need to dig into deep parameters much to get a good sound, they're more about fine tuning response.

 

[kai_p]

Personally...I think you are massively overcomplicating things. I think starting off especially if you're not familiar with a bunch of amps and speaker types, auditioning some factory presets and use those as templates is going to be the quickest way to good tones.

If you want to start from scratch, you really need to have an IR you are familiar with. At that point, you'll know in about 5 seconds whether the amp IR combo works and shouldn't need to dig into deep parameters much to get a good sound, they're more about fine tuning response.

Hey Will, yes maybe overanalyzing things might be a result from my profession as a scientist ;-)

But: Now that I understood how this works, it is not complicated anymore. Today I started from scratch with only an amp block and output via solid state power amp to my guitar cabinet. It took me around ten minutes to dial in a tone + feel which for the first time on the FM3 really satisfied me. Before, something was missing for me, so I was dissatisfied.

The thing is, I own a Marshall Plexi replica tube amp from the seventies and love the tone and feel of it, how it behaves in a musical way with all the harmonics, compression and how it reacts to your playing and makes you want to play forever. Up to now I was not able to get such a tone + feel from the FM3, and since I wanted to replace my tube amp with the FM3 for some reasons - and this was a pretty expensive purchase - I was frustrated.

Now I am very satisfied with the FM3 since I know it will do the job I bought it for.

 

[la szum]

. This simply is not a "turn on, set drive + volume level and forget" device, and there certainly is a learning curve to it.

One of the delights of the FM3 has been that I don't have to tweak endlessly for it to sound good. I mean,
I could, but it is not required. I just plug and play. It sounds great.

What I see often on the forums being the most problematic area for people is how the device is being powered
(amp) and how it is being monitored (speakers). Those the two areas where I think the largest issues exist with
people feeling like they are not getting good tones.

 

[Fat Dad]

One of the delights of the FM3 has been that I don't have to tweak endlessly for it to sound good. I mean,
I could, but it is not required. I just plug and play. It sounds great.

What I see often on the forums being the most problematic area for people is how the device is being powered
(amp) and how it is being monitored (speakers). Those the two areas where I think the largest issues exist with
people feeling like they are not getting good tones.

Exactly this. I’ve found the simplest, and in my personal opinion, best sounding, has been using a FRFR. In most cases, I’ve been able to find an inspiring and great sounding tone in less than a minute.

 

[kai_p]

One of the delights of the FM3 has been that I don't have to tweak endlessly for it to sound good. I mean,
I could, but it is not required. I just plug and play. It sounds great.

What I see often on the forums being the most problematic area for people is how the device is being powered
(amp) and how it is being monitored (speakers). Those the two areas where I think the largest issues exist with
people feeling like they are not getting good tones.

Yes, I think you're right in the end. I think the main reason why it took me forever to get a good tone via my headphones is their frequency response. They boost 7 kHz by +12 dB, another peak exists at 2.5 kHz (+3 dB), and they cut off bass starting below 200 Hz, going down to -4.5 dB at 70 Hz. This leads to a really thin, bright and harsh tone for certain amps which requires lots of tweaking of several parameters to make it sound good. Until I understood this, it was very hard to get it sound right.