Problem with volume/filter block in the Axe, loosing treble.

[guitarnerdswe]

Are you sure that all you have in the Layout of your Axe Preset with whitch you're testing this is just an amp Block?
A Compressor block (or some other effect block type in front of the Amp block might cause what you're getting.

Does this happen on all of your Presets?

It happens on all presets, and all of the amps I tried it on It doesn't matter what's in the preset, as long as they're all of exept vol - amp - cab.

 

[guitarnerdswe]

Have you tested it with another type of cable?

No, not until you mentioned it. I did, no noticable different ( other than the fact that different cables sound different overall ).

 

[joegold]

Are you sure that all you have in the Layout of your Axe Preset with whitch you're testing this is just an amp Block?
A Compressor block (or some other effect block type in front of the Amp block might cause what you're getting.

Does this happen on all of your Presets?

It happens on all presets, and all of the amps I tried it on It doesn't matter what's in the preset, as long as they're all of exept vol - amp - cab.

I usually have my Volume/filter block post Amp block.
Have you tried it this way and if so does your problem (assuming it is a problem) still happen?

Actually, most of us would be happy if we didn't lose top end when we turned out guitar's vol pots down.

 

[guitarnerdswe]

Are you sure that all you have in the Layout of your Axe Preset with whitch you're testing this is just an amp Block?
A Compressor block (or some other effect block type in front of the Amp block might cause what you're getting.

Does this happen on all of your Presets?

It happens on all presets, and all of the amps I tried it on It doesn't matter what's in the preset, as long as they're all of exept vol - amp - cab.

I usually have my Volume/filter block post Amp block.
Have you tried it this way and if so does your problem (assuming it is a problem) still happen?

Actually, most of us would be happy if we didn't lose top end when we turned out guitar's vol pots down.

Well, it's really hard to compared before and after the amp block, it's pretty much impossible.

I have tried a whole bunch of guitars when trying to figure this out. All of them acted like my own, so I bet yours do too

 

[joegold]

Well, it's really hard to compared before and after the amp block, it's pretty much impossible.

Why do you say that?
Put the vol Block after the amp block.
Use a clean sound and try backing off the guitar's vol pot at various positions of your controller pedal.

I have tried a whole bunch of guitars when trying to figure this out. All of them acted like my own, so I bet yours do too

None of my guitars act like yours is acting.
There's something funny going on at your end.

 

[guitarnerdswe]

Well, it's really hard to compared before and after the amp block, it's pretty much impossible.

Why do you say that?
Put the vol Block after the amp block.
Use a clean sound and try backing off the guitar's vol pot at various positions of your controller pedal.

I have tried a whole bunch of guitars when trying to figure this out. All of them acted like my own, so I bet yours do too

None of my guitars act like yours is acting.
There's something funny going on at your end.

Well, as I said, you can compare those 2 anyways. A reduction in volume before the amp always changes the tone AND amount of gain. After does neither.

There is nothing funny. I hooked up several other guitars that weren't mine to the Axe, and also into real amps. The results where all the same.

 

[joegold]

There is nothing funny. I hooked up several other guitars that weren't mine to the Axe, and also into real amps. The results where all the same.

There *is* something funny going on at your end because this doesn't happen for anybody else except you.
If you want anybody here to be able to help you with this then you'll have to be a bit more forthcoming and answer some more of the questions that we ask you and try some of the thing we suggest that you try.

Does this only happen when you have a Vol/Filter Block in the Layout?
I.e. What happens if there is no Vol Block?
What happens if the Vol Block comes after the Amp Block?
Does this only happen with hi-gain presets or does it also happen with clean presets too?
Which amp types have you been using where this has been happening?
When you plug into a regular guitar amp (i.e. not the Axe) with these same guitars, does the same thing happen?
Are you sure that you're actually using a Vol effect in the Vol/Filter Block and not a Filter effect?

And why have you written the Subject line of this thread the way that you have?
Your problem is not that the Vol Block is losing treble. Your problem is that your guitar's vol pots, when connected to the Axe, are atypically adding treble rather than losing treble when you turn them down, no?
If that's not the problem then please re-state the problem for me because that's what I've been assuming the problem is.
That's what the problem sounded like in your clips.
The Vol effect in the Vol/filter Block works great over here. It's like the best vol pedal I've ever had. It doesn't colour the sound *at all* at any volume.

I always put my vol pedals after my gain effects or after my preamp if I'm getting hi-gain effects from the preamp.
This allows me to get the same amount of gain at any volume without changing the tone either, and I can adjust the amount of gain via my guitar's vol pot. But when *I* turn the guitar's vol pot down I lose some top end, and that's why I have switchable treble bleed circuits in all my guitars that I use for rock music.
With the Axe, I put the Vol Block, with a Vol effect controlled via CC pedal, after the Amp Block and i don't get your problems happening for me.
When I next get a chance to set it up, I'll try putting the Vol effect in front of the Amp Block and see if I can reproduce your problem. but I don't expect to be able to reproduce your problem.

Something is quite off here.
If this type of thing was a known problem that could arise if the Axe's components (eg. input buffer) were malfunctioning in some way then Cliff, who has already participated in this thread, would have said something by now.
So it's pretty much got to be something you're doing that is causing the problem.

 

[guitarnerdswe]

There is nothing funny. I hooked up several other guitars that weren't mine to the Axe, and also into real amps. The results where all the same.

There *is* something funny going on at your end because this doesn't happen for anybody else except you.
If you want anybody here to be able to help you with this then you'll have to be a bit more forthcoming and answer some more of the questions that we ask you and try some of the thing we suggest that you try.

Does this only happen when you have a Vol/Filter Block in the Layout?
I.e. What happens if there is no Vol Block?
What happens if the Vol Block comes after the Amp Block?
Does this only happen with hi-gain presets or does it also happen with clean presets too?
Which amp types have you been using where this has been happening?
When you plug into a regular guitar amp (i.e. not the Axe) with these same guitars, does the same thing happen?
Are you sure that you're actually using a Vol effect in the Vol/Filter Block and not a Filter effect?

And why have you written the Subject line of this thread the way that you have?
Your problem is not that the Vol Block is losing treble. Your problem is that your guitar's vol pots, when connected to the Axe, are atypically adding treble rather than losing treble when you turn them down, no?
If that's not the problem then please re-state the problem for me because that's what I've been assuming the problem is.
That's what the problem sounded like in your clips.
The Vol effect in the Vol/filter Block works great over here. It's like the best vol pedal I've ever had. It doesn't colour the sound *at all* at any volume.

I always put my vol pedals after my gain effects or after my preamp if I'm getting hi-gain effects from the preamp.
This allows me to get the same amount of gain at any volume without changing the tone either, and I can adjust the amount of gain via my guitar's vol pot. But when *I* turn the guitar's vol pot down I lose some top end, and that's why I have switchable treble bleed circuits in all my guitars that I use for rock music.
With the Axe, I put the Vol Block, with a Vol effect controlled via CC pedal, after the Amp Block and i don't get your problems happening for me.
When I next get a chance to set it up, I'll try putting the Vol effect in front of the Amp Block and see if I can reproduce your problem. but I don't expect to be able to reproduce your problem.

Something is quite off here.
If this type of thing was a known problem that could arise if the Axe's components (eg. input buffer) were malfunctioning in some way then Cliff, who has already participated in this thread, would have said something by now.
So it's pretty much got to be something you're doing that is causing the problem.

I can hook up any guitar into any amp, and have a good buffer followed by a 25k vol pot, and compared those 2, and have the same results as it with the Axe. In other words, the Axe works perfectly fine. Even Cliff listened to my clips and said it was fine. You seem to be missing this part. And also the part that it happens on all guitars, amps etc that I've tried since I discovered this little phenomenon :mrgreen: Also, I ( like the majority of guitar players ), always use the volume pedal before the amp, to control gain. I never change .volume exept between rhythm and lead patches. The volume pedal is there for me to do stuff that I can do with the guitar volume pot while playing ( like doing swells with whammy bar, changing the amount of distortion in the middle of a lick or riff )

I've tried everything people have suggested, and give all information I've been asked for. I might have missed something, but as far as I can remember, I've done everything.

It happens with the filter block, and volume block, and it doesn't matter how many things are in the presets, as long as they're all off exept volume block, amp and cab, the results are all the same. As Cliff already said, and I've also concluded, the Axe works fine. It happens on all amps, and on all sound, because it's apparently a physics thing, which has do with guitar pots, cable physics and nothing else.

And as I said, IT HAPPENS ON ALL AMPS, AND ALL GUITARS :mrgreen: You keep talking to me like I'm just starting on playing guitar and using rack effects. This is really not the case (full time working musician here). I've used friends guitars and amps, walked in musicstores and tried it etc, and every single case sound exactly like my clip. Everybody exept you has pretty much accepted that everything is like it should. I really can't say why this discussing is still going. This is really beating a dead horse.

I wrote the subject like that, just asking the question in the OP, if there was any chance that there might be a problem in the Axe. Cliff said there wasn't, and I also realized that after more tests. And no, the vol block in the Axe doesn't color the tone, neither does a good buffer and a 25k vol pedal, since those 2 methods sound the same. It's the guitar pots that sound the same, and as somebody said, a guitar pot is really a crude thing, and not precise or perfect in any way, not even close. That together with cable capacitance causes the tone to get clearer, as somebody else said.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with the Axe, or my guitars, or my cables, or my friends guitars, cables and amps, or yours etc etc :mrgreen: Post a clip of your guitar rolled down to 3, and compare it with a volume block that matches in volume, and post a clip of that. Use an amp with a bright cap, and quite bright settings for it to be more apparent.

 

[joegold]

I'm sorry. I guess there is something here that I'm not getting.

When I listened to your clips the only oddity I heard was that when you turned down your guitar's volume pot that you had increased highs rather than reduced highs.
*That* is not the norm. The opposite of that is the norm.

If that's not the "problem" that you've been enquiring about here, or if that's not the "problem" you are concerned about, then I'm sorry for having intruded on your thread.
If all is well with you then all is well here too.

Later.

 

[guitarnerdswe]

I'm sorry. I guess there is something here that I'm not getting.

When I listened to your clips the only oddity I heard was that when you turned down your guitar's volume pot that you had increased highs rather than reduced highs.
*That* is not the norm. The opposite of that is the norm.

If that's not the "problem" that you've been enquiring about here, or if that's not the "problem" you are concerned about, then I'm sorry for having intruded on your thread.
If all is well with you then all is well here too.

Later.

As I said, I tried a whole bunch of guitars. All of them react the same way. So unless my fingers are magic and increase highs, then I'm pretty sure it's normal :mrgreen:

Post a clip with the volume on 3 on the guitar, and compare with a volume block doing the same thing volumewise.

 

[joegold]

OK.
I don't have time to post a clip.
But I have been playing around with things and I think I've reproduced the effect that you seem to be getting in your clips.
Here's what I think is going on.

When we play straight into the input of a guitar amp and then lower the guitar's vol pot the first thing we notice is the loss of treble.
But if you turn up the amp's Master volume control so that the SPL level it back where it was before you turned the guitar's vol pot down you'll notice that the tone is brighter than you originally perceived it to be.
My take on why this is is that the guitar's vol pot also attenuates the bass frequencies when you turn it down.

This same effect will occur in the Axe if you use Volume Block or one of the Output knobs to re-gain the SPL levels lost by turning down the guitar's volume pot.
But I think it's more noticeable with the Axe because we have so much more control over the output level via things like the Vol/Filt Block.
Plus, the Axe's Volume Block and other volume controls, all being in the digital domain, are all much higher quality than any vol pedal you will ever find, so when you turn down the vol via the Axe's Vol Block you don't lose any bottom end.
This might make it seem like an increase in the lower freqs as you attenuate the SPL via a Vol Block effect.

At least that's my take on it.

 

[guitarnerdswe]

The thing you're describing is somewhat what the Fletcher Munson curve is all about. So some of it can be that we hear less highs when the volume is lower, when the amount of highs actually is the same, or maybe even more.

About the technical reason for why that pot does this, well aside from such things as the capaticance and resistance in cables, I think some of might be that while we lose highs when we roll down the vol pot on the guitars, the highs that we lose, are primarily either to high to matter for a guitar, or of the harsher kind. When those go away, we might percive the sound as "clearer" since some of the ice pick in the ear effect is gone, but the articulate mids and low treble freq. are still there. Also, some low end might be reduced to. I don't know if any of this makes sence, or is even true, but it's a theory at least.