Problem re-amping with AXE-FX II, Liquid Saffire 56 and Logic

Chris Rudolf

Chris Rudolf

Member
Hello Everyone,

I could benefit from some assistance with re-amping in Logic using the Saffire Liq 56 interface.

Here’s my set up:

Saffire Liquid 56
Saffire mix control software
AXE-FX II Mark I, Firmware 14.02
Macbook Pro, Mavericks OS, AXE-FX driver most current
SPDIF connections both directions from Saffire 56 to AXE-II with good quality cables
Saffire 56 as Master, 48 kHz

Problem:

I am trying to use SPDIF connections to send the dry signal to the AXE-FX for re-amping and then back to Logic for recording. I am unable to get my dry signal back into the AXE-FX via SPDIF and then back to Logic. When I play back the dry track and record on a new track I hear no sound. I can hear the dry track but no signal comes from the AXE-FX to the new track. I’ve also checked the input signals on the Utility page of the AXE-FX while playing the dry track. There doesn’t appear to be any signal coming through when playing the dry track. It appears that my signal isn’t getting to the AXE-FX. I’ve read through the forums. I believe I have all the settings correct on the AXE-FX I/O menu. Sample rate is 48kHz on Liq 56 and it is the Master, in sync. I do not have the dreaded “no input clock” error on the AXE-FX II except only briefly when switching the input to SPDIF. I do know that I can receive signals from the AXE-FX via SPDIF out. I have tried recording this way from the AXE-FX and it works fine.

My concern is that there is some simple setting I’ve overlooked. Or there is something about the quirky yet powerful Saffire Mix Control software that isn’t configured correctly. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. If I’ve missed something ridiculously obvious, I apologize in advance. Thanks.

Chris
 
I have a pro 40 and have the same issue. I can do it no problem with my roland quad capture, so I think there is a problem in the mix control. I know mix control is confusing as hell!!! I usually swear at least once every time I open it up.
Hopefully someone can chime in and help us both out...
 
in Logic, how do set the channel strip's output to get to the Axe?
and in the mix control s/w, how do you route this from the incoming firewire channel to the right SDIPF output channel [that corresponds to the Axe's incoming signal for reamping]
 
I do everything at 44.1 and do analogue reamping. I do have a saffire 56 pro too so will be interesting to see what you work out.
 
I find mix control to be easy and powerful. But at first I did find it pretty confusing, watched a few youtube vids and off i went. Good luck finding the issue guys.
 
I have Saffire Pro and using Pro Tools and was going to try this today if I could get my hands on my new Axe-FX XL. (I waited all day long at home and the UPS driver must have knocked on the door once and ran away, so pissed off at him right now.). I assume you can already record a dry track to your DAW, so the routing is correct at that side but the return for the re-amp is the issue.
 
Are you making sure that you're feeding the dry track to the SPDIF output in your DAW?
 
Thanks everyone for responding. Greatly appreciated. I'm thinking that Clarky is on the right track. The problem is getting the dry signal out of Logic and the Saffire mix control I/O configuration to receive it. And as Shasha suggests, I have to be certain that I'm getting the dry signal out of the DAW into the AXE via SPDIF. I guess I'm not sure. Is there a way to test this? The dry track output is set to "Stereo Out" in Logic. Yes, the Saffire control software is a bit of a pain to learn but it is very powerful once you figure it out. It has worked well for creating custom mixes for monitoring. Anyway, I have to dig deeper into it. I'm going try a few things based on suggestions here and will report back with more details.
 
I run a quarter inch from Output 3 of the LS56 into the rear In on the Fractal (and adjust the I/O setting) and then record the wet signal via USB.
 
Chris Rudolf said:
The dry track output is set to "Stereo Out" in Logic.
Click to expand...
that don't sound right to me at all.. you're essentially sending the dry track to fw channels 1-2.. by default I'd imagine your Pro 56 would point that at your studio monitors.

so... when you're in Logic.. go to the dry guitar channel strip and click on the output button.
this will show you all of the output channels that you can assign to this channel strip..
depending on how the Pro 56 works / can be configured you should be doing something like this:

1 - assuming the Pro 56 routing from is incoming fw channels to it's outputs are fixed and so not configurable [which I very much doubt]
find out which incoming channels route through to the SPIDF channels that correspond to the Axe's input
then assign this channel on the logic channel strip [it almost certainly will not be "master output" / 1-2]

2 - assuming the Pro 56 can route any incoming fw channel to any output jack or SPIDF channel
in Logic, assign any output to the dry guitar channel strip, but not the master / 1-2
let's say it is output 3.
in the Pro 56, the dry guitar will arrive in fw input 3.
in the mix control sw, you must route the fw input 3 to the SPIDF output number that corresponds to the Axe's input.

I don't do it this way... but to offer any example that may help you see how this works...
I have an aggregate interface calls OnyxAxe
the Onyx has 16 fw outs and 2 fw ins [master which goes to the monitors]
the Axe has 2 usb ins and 4 usb outs

dry guitar channel strip in logic
the input numbers from 1 to 20 where: 1 to 16 are the Onyx, 17 to 20 are the Axe [which correspond to the Axe's outs 0/1 and 2/3]
I select 19, jack the guitar into the Axe, hit record in logic and record my guitar

the channel strip's output numbers from 1 to 4 where: 1-2 are for the master stereo outs to the Onyx [studio monitors], 3-4 go to the Axe inputs [0/1] via the usb
I set the channel strip's out to 3, in the Axe I/O page I change the input from analog to USB
hit play in the DAW and I set the inputs LEDs lighting on the Axe's front panel and I hear the preset's tone coming through the monitors

wet guitar channel strip in Logic
the input is set to 17 for mono [which is USB out 0 in the Axe] or 17-18 for stereo [which is USB 0/1 in the Axe] because these correspond to the Axe's USB outs 0/1 [which is the main output] and then record my performance through the amp models in the Axe

EDIT: I know my solution is very different to the OP's, I'm just trying to illustrate the thinking behind all this.. essentially.. this is how you have to line up the routing of the fw and usb channels..
 
Hey Everybody,

Thanks again for all the tips. You’ve pointed me in the right direction…to success. I’ve got this working now. As per Clarky’s suggestion, I found out where to assign the SPDIF output on the Saffire Mix Control software. As I thought, it turned out to be an issue with the Mix control software.

Here’s how I did it. In the lower left hand corner of the Saffire Mix Control software there are two buttons for SPDIF Output 1 and SPDIF Output 2. Each button selects what signal to assign this to. I set SPDIF Output 1 to DAW 1 and SPDIF Output 2 to DAW 2. DAW 1 and DAW 2 correspond to the left and right channels respectively of the Stereo Output from Logic. I played the dry track solo and checked the Utility=>Status page on the AXE-FX and sure enough, there was signal coming through. Great! I went to the Mix control software and made sure that the analogue channels receiving data from the AXE-FX (in my set up, channels 4 and 5) had their levels turned up. I could hear the re-amped sound coming through the mix control software on channels 4 and 5 where I send the signal from Output 1 of the AXE-FX. Doing it this way, I could still hear the dry signal in the mix control software. This is because I have the monitor section (second column from right) on the Saffire Mix control software to receive DAW 1 and DAW 2. If I don’t wish to hear this while I am dialing in the re-amped signal, I just turn it down completely or set those to off. I should also mention that I was also able to send the re-amped signal back to Logic through SPDIF. To do this I, simply set the inputs on the new armed recording tracks to input 9 and input 10. These are the SPDIF 1.1 and 1.2 channels of the Saffire Liq 56.

Now, as Clarky noted, I should configure the dry track to send its output alone. I tried this too. I changed the dry tracks to different outputs. Now this is where I am still confused. I do not know what outputs to assign the dry tracks to. According to the Liquid Saffire 56 manual (p.29), the digital channel outputs are 11-28. However, it doesn’t state which ones are SPDIF!! I thought that maybe 11 and 12 might be it. So, I tried setting the dry tracks outputs to 11 and 12. Worked fine except that now I couldn’t hear the dry track. No big deal. As long as the SPDIF Output 1 and SPDIF Output 2 of the Saffire Mix control software matched the selected outputs of the dry track, I could always get a signal. I know because I tried every dry output from 11 to 28. It always worked. Logic simply creates additional outputs in the Logic mixer window corresponding to the outputs of the dry tracks that where selected. The only difference here was that the dry track signal wasn’t heard.

And just to mention, I recorded the dry signal using the Output 2 Echo => Input 1 feature. Worked perfectly. I just ran balanced cables from Output 2 of the AXE-FX into the analog channels of the Saffire Liq 56.

Now I don’t wish to hi-jack my own thread but Clarky, are you telling me that you’ve actually gotten an aggregate device working that combines both FW and USB? I’m intrigued because I haven’t heard of folks having much luck with this approach. I haven’t tried it yet myself. Are you using Logic? Looks like you’ve got an Onyx preamp.

The Saffire Mix Control IS damned confusing initially. The number of possibilities for mixing and routing is overwhelming. And there wasn’t much of a manual. The videos online have been helpful particularly for setting up custom in-ear mixes that we use at band rehearsal when we are recording (which is every practice…lol). It is a powerful way to do things. Just wish there was a more detailed manual.

Here are a couple of posts, links and videos I found useful when trying to figure this out.

Bernd Kilz’s excellent video on re-amping with Logic. Its USB based but the concepts are the same.

Axe-FX II Tutorial (en): Reamping with Logic Audio - YouTube

Shasha’s outline within this post.

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-discussion/83287-reamping-interface.html

How to set up SPDIF in Saffire Mix Control…the key.

How do I use the S/PDIF inputs and outputs on the Saffire or Scarlett and how should I sync the devices? | Focusrite

Thanks again everyone for your help.

Chris
 
glad you got it sorted..

yes I have the Oynx [which is a Mackie Mixer with firewire] and the Axe in an aggregate interface..
and I'm running Logic Pro 9

on the odd occasion the USB plays up [and that's only happened since Axe fw14.02.. no idea why or if this is a coincidence], so I have to reset the agg interface in Logic..
but that's a minor pain in the rear compared to the benefits..

there's no reason why you can't make an agg interface with the Pro 56 and the Axe

DAW master output --fw--> Pro 56 -> studio monitors
DAW <--USB --> Axe2 for recording only
Axe output1 --1/4" jack--> Pro 56 -> studio monitors [so that you can hear the Axe2 in real time, no latency etc both when playing and reamping]
 
Thanks Clarky. You've been a great help. Its interesting because when looking at gear to expand my recording set up I was seriously considering the 16 channel Mackie Onyx FW mixer. Definitely a fan of Mackie stuff. I have an old 1402 mixer that still works perfectly. For a variety of reasons which I wont go into, I decided to go with the Saffire 56 paired with an Octo Pre MKII dynamic connected via ADAT and Word Clock cables. So far, its working nicely and records great. I will give the aggregate device a try with the AXE-FX and Saffire 56.
 
Chris Rudolf said:
Now this is where I am still confused. I do not know what outputs to assign the dry tracks to. According to the Liquid Saffire 56 manual (p.29), the digital channel outputs are 11-28.
Click to expand...

You can use any output, but you might see a specific pair like 11 & 12 labeled SPDIF L/R in Logic. If you choose those set MixControl to use DAW 11 and DAW 12 for SPDIF. (The right channel actually won't matter for mono DI reamping.) If you used another out # in Logic, use the same DAW # in MixControl.
 
just a thought...
I'm wondering what the latency will be like when using digital connectivity DAW <-> AI <-> Axe setup vs DW <-USB-> Axe

when you record the dry there will be a hint of delay
when you reamp with this 'delayed dry', the Axe will receive it with a little more delay added
and then when the reamped audio arrives at the DAW it's have a little more dlay added again..

fixing it is not a biggie.. you just apply a -ve delay value to the region in Logic's inspect to line it back up [which I have to do anyhow]
I was just currious if placing an AI between the Axe and the DAW would add much more across that entire reamping process..

EDIT: thinking about this has made me consider running an experiment
set Logic's audio buffer to 256
play a 'click' into the Axe's instr in and record it in Logic to represent the "dry"
compare it with the original click in Logic and use this to determine what value to set the inspector delay to so that the dry lines up perfectly.
Then reamp this 'dry click' and line it up with the source to work out what delay should be applied to this..
untill now, I've been doing this by ear.. which to be fair has been working fine..
but i guess it'd be cool to have known specific values of delay to applyt to the dry and reamped regions [which should save time lining up].. I'm thinking that when dropping stacks of riffing tracks, having these values known would ease lining them up
 
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Another way to measure it is to record just the dry, then re-amp in bypass mode. Then reverse the phase of the re-amped track and adjust until you get 100% cancellation. Most DAW's have some kind of compensation for latency added by using outboard gear.
 
clarky said:
EDIT: thinking about this has made me consider running an experiment
set Logic's audio buffer to 256
play a 'click' into the Axe's instr in and record it in Logic to represent the "dry"
compare it with the original click in Logic and use this to determine what value to set the inspector delay to so that the dry lines up perfectly.
Then reamp this 'dry click' and line it up with the source to work out what delay should be applied to this..
untill now, I've been doing this by ear.. which to be fair has been working fine..
but i guess it'd be cool to have known specific values of delay to applyt to the dry and reamped regions [which should save time lining up].. I'm thinking that when dropping stacks of riffing tracks, having these values known would ease lining them up
Click to expand...

did a quick test..
played a hi-hat in a Logic instrument.
bounced it 'in-place' to make it an audio track
fired it out to the Axe and recorded the 'wet' from the Axe..
to lock the original audio to the audio from the Axe needed a region delay set to -20 in Logic
which if you've never heard it, is minutely small..

so here's my guess.. if the round trip = -20, then my original performance could be delayed by half that -10..
so the final recorded wet track could be delayed by -30.. which is really really small..
but purely in the interests of science, when I reamp my real guitar parts I'm going to try applying a -30 delay to the regions to see if it makes any difference at all..
to be honest.. I seriously doubt I'll be able to hear it..
but it's a fun thing to try and an interesting thing to be aware of..
even [as I suspect] the final outcome is "just don't worry about it"
 
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Well there are instances where it can be enough of a difference to cause phasing issues if you use the original wet and re-amp'd wet track. An easy (i.e., extremely lazy) way to eliminate that is to record the dry take while only monitoring the wet for the first take. Then re-amp everything and they will be in phase and delayed by the same amount. For me the latency isn't enough to cause timing issues (at least no more than my playing in general). I just get tired of trying to line up the re-amp'd take precisely with the original wet take.

Of course this is assuming that you would do two re-amps of the same take (for example to pan one left and one right).

Basically you don't need to give a damn about the delay offset compensation and calculating latency this way.

I hope that makes sense.
 
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