Wish Presence taper that matches the real amp

E

E-Sound

Inspired
With the ever increasing accuracy of the amp models in the axe fx 3, it would be really cool to see the taper of the presence knob also change to match its real life counterpart.

I know this has been implemented on several amp models already. But there’s still a lot of amp models with “evened out” presence taper (f.ex. the Euro Blue/Red models).

With the implementation of authentic master volume taper (except for some select models) a few firmwares back, i feel it appropriate to also make a wish to change the taper of the presence knob to match the real amp.

As far as I know, this is the only remaining amp block knob that is operating with an “evened out taper” (in the basic page at least).
 
Alternatively; other forum members have suggested a global setting that chooses between authentic and ideal tapers.

When set to authentic, the tapers of all knobs in the model matches the tapers on the real amp (presence included). When set to ideal, the tapers are evened out over the entire range of the knobs.

This would theoretically satisfy both camps.
 
E-Sound said:
Alternatively; other forum members have suggested a global setting that chooses between authentic and ideal tapers.
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That could potentially lead to confusion in videos and screencaps though.

I have not re-familiarized with the current Axe-Edit, but isn't Presence repeated for both authentic and ideal tabs? Might make more sense to simply oblige to what it says then...

I also don't know if some of the alternate functions of the Presence knob might interfere with this idea... For now, I'll guess not.
 
Saarang Narayan said:
Videos of the unit yes, but surely not Axe Edit? Axe Edit has dedicated ideal and authentic pages.
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That's what I'm proposing makes more sense...:
Make the tabs do what they say and both parties should be happy (and you don't need an extra toggle switch causing confusion).

I am otherwise not really asking for this, as I didn't think the other knobs inside "authentic" already are, and it leads to tweaking with your eyes — but sure, it's handy to start off with a same baseline some favorite player has, esp. if it seems a surprisingly extreme setting.
 
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Cliff answered this wish in response to your comment back in 2020:

"Why model something that is so obviously flawed?"

When it comes to the minutia of amps and their controls, I'll gladly accept any improvements to an amps controls rather than replicate a poor design. Having a control that allows for a more useful range of the parameter is very much appreciated. It doesn't make sense to want something that doesn't work efficiently when it doesn't affect the overall tone or response of the amp.

Even if he did match the tapers of the controls, there would still be complaining that the Axe model doesn't sound the same as the physical amp using the same settings. Too wide of a range of tolerance when it comes to potentiometers.
 
E-Sound said:
With the ever increasing accuracy of the amp models in the axe fx 3, it would be really cool to see the taper of the presence knob also change to match its real life counterpart.

I know this has been implemented on several amp models already. But there’s still a lot of amp models with “evened out” presence taper (f.ex. the Euro Blue/Red models).

With the implementation of authentic master volume taper (except for some select models) a few firmwares back, i feel it appropriate to also make a wish to change the taper of the presence knob to match the real amp.
Click to expand...
It's not practical, or realistic. The real amps often don't match between two models of the same amp if, during different production runs, they had to switch to a different brand of potentiometers. That's why we are told to use our ears, not our eyes.

JoKeR III said:
Even if he did match the tapers of the controls, there would still be complaining that the Axe model doesn't sound the same as the physical amp using the same settings. Too wide of a range of tolerance when it comes to potentiometers.
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"No Two Amps Sound the Same - Fact or Fallacy" is useful reading, and is what @Joker alluded to.
 
JoKeR III said:
Cliff answered this wish in response to your comment back in 2020:

"Why model something that is so obviously flawed?"

When it comes to the minutia of amps and their controls, I'll gladly accept any improvements to an amps controls rather than replicate a poor design. Having a control that allows for a more useful range of the parameter is very much appreciated. It doesn't make sense to want something that doesn't work efficiently when it doesn't affect the overall tone or response of the amp.

Even if he did match the tapers of the controls, there would still be complaining that the Axe model doesn't sound the same as the physical amp using the same settings. Too wide of a range of tolerance when it comes to potentiometers.
Click to expand...
I know opinions differ when it comes to this topic. Some user would like the tapers of all knobs to correspond to the tapers of the real life counterparts. Other users would prefer tapers that are evened out to be useful over the entire range. Both sides have their reasons. That’s why some have suggested a global setting for tapers, like the one mentioned above.
 
I’d love to see this too. It would make it easier to emulate settings from the real amps. I have a feeling (and hope) that the Presence portion of the power amp modeling will get some improvements in the future. On real amps, setting it higher gives the tone more edge and cut, where on the models it tends to boost upper-mids instead.

Tonally, it’s accurate on some models, but behaves differently for others.
 
I made a quick test today to better illustrate what I mentioned above about Presence behavior varying between the real amp and the model. Presence can be close when not used aggressively, but this test is meant to show how Presence on 10 sounds when comparing real amps to their respective models. I talked to one of my amp techs about different tapers and he said the taper type will affect the sweep between zero to 10, but zero is always zero and 10 is always 10... so hearing these examples with the Presence on 10 isn't aimed at sounding good, it's just meant to show that maybe the Presence portion of the power amp modeling could be looked at for future improvement and then hoping that the authentic tapers would be applied for easier apples to apples accuracy.

I switched four amps and models in real time to show the differences. The amp settings are the same on the real amps and models with the same IR and LB-2 UK impedance curve to match the LB-2 UK used with the real amps. Both the real amps and the Axe-Fx are going straight into my interface's internal mic preamps, which are identical.

The amps are:
1. Jubilee and Brit Silver
2. 2-Channel Dual Rectifier and Recto 1 Red
3. '77 Marshall 2204 and Plexi 2204
4. 5150 Block Letter and PVH 6160 Block Lead



I still believe Fractal has the most accurate amp modeling on the market, and I can replicate my real amps (for the most part) much closer with the Axe-Fx III than with any other modeler. This is just one area that might benefit from seeing some improvement. I also understand that different physical amps can sound drastically different from unit to unit; especially heard in the 2204 clip, but not as drastic with the 5150.
 
York Audio said:
I made a quick test today to better illustrate what I mentioned above about Presence behavior varying between the real amp and the model. Presence can be close when not used aggressively, but this test is meant to show how Presence on 10 sounds when comparing real amps to their respective models. I talked to one of my amp techs about different tapers and he said the taper type will affect the sweep between zero to 10, but zero is always zero and 10 is always 10... so hearing these examples with the Presence on 10 isn't aimed at sounding good, it's just meant to show that maybe the Presence portion of the power amp modeling could be looked at for future improvement and then hoping that the authentic tapers would be applied for easier apples to apples accuracy.

I switched four amps and models in real time to show the differences. The amp settings are the same on the real amps and models with the same IR and LB-2 UK impedance curve to match the LB-2 UK used with the real amps. Both the real amps and the Axe-Fx are going straight into my interface's internal mic preamps, which are identical.

The amps are:
1. Jubilee and Brit Silver
2. 2-Channel Dual Rectifier and Recto 1 Red
3. '77 Marshall 2204 and Plexi 2204
4. 5150 Block Letter and PVH 6160 Block Lead



I still believe Fractal has the most accurate amp modeling on the market, and I can replicate my real amps (for the most part) much closer with the Axe-Fx III than with any other modeler. This is just one area that might benefit from seeing some improvement. I also understand that different physical amps can sound drastically different from unit to unit; especially heard in the 2204 clip, but not as drastic with the 5150.
Click to expand...

Which firmware has this been recorded with?
 
alethomantis said:
Sounds like a quite a significant difference in the clips. I wonder if the newest Beta changes things somewhat due to the bias bug in Beta 2. Also, is it possible that the amp sections of the clips are louder?
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I haven’t tried Beta 4 yet, but I’m excited to load it when I get a chance. The clips are all volume matched within 0.5db. The real amps seem louder because they’re brighter and cut more. Our ears are more sensitive to top end, so those sounds are perceived as being louder.
 
York Audio said:
I’d love to see this too. It would make it easier to emulate settings from the real amps. I have a feeling (and hope) that the Presence portion of the power amp modeling will get some improvements in the future. On real amps, setting it higher gives the tone more edge and cut, where on the models it tends to boost upper-mids instead.

Tonally, it’s accurate on some models, but behaves differently for others.
Click to expand...
you're absolutely right about this. Presence is the one thing that's bugged me for a long time. it's one thing to correct a flawed design but like you said, 0 should be 0 and 10 should be 10 . at least that should be accurate.
 
York Audio said:
I haven’t tried Beta 4 yet, but I’m excited to load it when I get a chance. The clips are all volume matched within 0.5db. The real amps seem louder because they’re brighter and cut more. Our ears are more sensitive to top end, so those sounds are perceived as being louder.
Click to expand...
That might make a difference there was a lot of bug fixes between 2 and 4 , Cliff was on fire today
From those clips character is similar but the real amps are thicker , puncher , Axe a bit more hollow and less gain on the 2204
5150 was the closest IMO
 
York Audio said:
I made a quick test today to better illustrate what I mentioned above about Presence behavior varying between the real amp and the model. Presence can be close when not used aggressively, but this test is meant to show how Presence on 10 sounds when comparing real amps to their respective models. I talked to one of my amp techs about different tapers and he said the taper type will affect the sweep between zero to 10, but zero is always zero and 10 is always 10... so hearing these examples with the Presence on 10 isn't aimed at sounding good, it's just meant to show that maybe the Presence portion of the power amp modeling could be looked at for future improvement and then hoping that the authentic tapers would be applied for easier apples to apples accuracy.

I switched four amps and models in real time to show the differences. The amp settings are the same on the real amps and models with the same IR and LB-2 UK impedance curve to match the LB-2 UK used with the real amps. Both the real amps and the Axe-Fx are going straight into my interface's internal mic preamps, which are identical.

The amps are:
1. Jubilee and Brit Silver
2. 2-Channel Dual Rectifier and Recto 1 Red
3. '77 Marshall 2204 and Plexi 2204
4. 5150 Block Letter and PVH 6160 Block Lead



I still believe Fractal has the most accurate amp modeling on the market, and I can replicate my real amps (for the most part) much closer with the Axe-Fx III than with any other modeler. This is just one area that might benefit from seeing some improvement. I also understand that different physical amps can sound drastically different from unit to unit; especially heard in the 2204 clip, but not as drastic with the 5150.
Click to expand...

Where do you have to set the presence on the Axe to get closer to the amps?
 
AndyTNBD said:
Where do you have to set the presence on the Axe to get closer to the amps?
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Since the taper don’t match the real amp, you have to adjust by ear. Which the clips shows can be quite difficult.

If this wish was implemented though, you would set it to the same as the real amp (adjusted for pot tolerances of course).

I’ll let York Audio answer for where it was set in the clips.
 
AndyTNBD said:
Where do you have to set the presence on the Axe to get closer to the amps?
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It varies from amp to amp. For instance, the Presence on a real 5150 doesn’t do anything until about 6, so the real amp on 6 is the same as the model on zero. If you raise it on the real amp to around 6.5-7, it’s roughly like 0.5-1.5 on the model.
 
York Audio said:
It varies from amp to amp. For instance, the Presence on a real 5150 doesn’t do anything until about 6, so the real amp on 6 is the same as the model on zero. If you raise it on the real amp to around 6.5-7, it’s roughly like 0.5-1.5 on the model.
Click to expand...
In other words, if you open up the presence on the model to 6, then you're waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy overdoing it?? That makes a lot of sense actually.
 
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