Power amp simulations on or off when recording into interface to DAW?

[viceboy]

OK, I am going to throw my 2cents in and agree with what was said above ...


Nolly's track sounds to me like he is not only using something else within his presets, but he has a whole host of post production wizardry going on there too.

I will also say, when i first got my Axe Fx, the tone was good, but not FANTASTIC ... and I tweaked and tweaked but it still sounded like there was a blanket over everything... THEN I finally searched around and procured some Canare 110ohm DA206 AES/EBU Digital XLR to XLR cables. (everything I read said it can be troublesome with SOME mics, but many studios were using this 110ohm cable as interconnects on rack gear for the analog signal) ... The veil was lifted and my tones got the 3D "alive" sound I was looking for. I was using the entry grade Monster Cable stuff before.

I run the Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 interface, 27" iMac and Logic Pro X. I run EV ZXA1 monitors live. I run stereo out of the back of the Axe Fx with a pair of the Canare DA206 cables that are 1 ft long. Then firewire to my DAW. I have no issues with clipping. My input on the axe fx, depending on guitar stays 10 to 11 o'clock. The output on Axe Fx is at 10 o'clock. The inputs on my Focusrite are about 11 o'clock. I get a strong signal and great volumes without clipping. Most high gain amp sims I run the master volumes around 1 o'clock or so. Cleaner amp sims are run just a breath hotter.

I also run pickups that vary HUGELY ... David Allen single coils. Seymour Duncan JB, Pearly Gates. Dimarzio Tone Zone, Paf Pro, Crunch Lab. Evans E2 Hot Lead. Bareknuckle Juggernauts. And my tuning varies from guitar to guitar to include Drop A, Standard B, Standard C, Drop D, Standard Eb and Standard E.

Now that I am thinking about it, how is your guitar set up? I know I am just throwing random shit out there, but there can be some justification sometimes. I have listened to guys play who are using mega low action and a string gauge too thin, and it keeps the notes from coming into full bloom. You can get a much more percussive tone out of it. And I'm not thinking your string gauge is too small because I don't hear a lot of the pitchy thing where your tuning goes sharp and settles in after heavy picking.

I have used Bias on a couple of occasions, and not saying it is a bad product, but it isn't as transparent as the Axe Fx. The BIAS can throw out some brutally crazy sounds, but what I wasn't as impressed about, was my USA Jackson Fusion with a Crunch Lab sounded not THAT much different than my Ibanez RG3120 with the Evans E2, which didn't sound a whole lot different than an old American Kramer with a Bareknuckles Juggernaut. On my Axe Fx Ultra, those are all COMPLETELY different beasts.

What I have learned, is that there are SO many different parameters within the Axe Fx (whether you are on a Standard or the latest Axe II) There is no compromise for seat time behind Axe Edit being a tweaker. I have a friend of mine that gives me hell, because he has had is Axe Fx II for almost 3 years, and he has a grand total of 4 presets that sound good to ok. I have had my Ultra for 1 1/2 months and he says all 15 of my presets CRUSH any of his.

Sometimes it does have a lot to do with what you are already comfortable using and how it tweaks... I learned in about 2 hours, you have to take everything you know about every other modeler and throw it away... Build a patch from scratch. go into the amp settings and tweak every knob and switch. put every one back where it was before going on to the next one. then start tweaking 2 or 3 at a time so you learn how they interact with each other, because they will ...

Hope I have given you a little encouragement and maybe shed a different light. Best of luck to you!

After the Canare Cables, here is what about 10 minutes of tone building had. There is ZERO post production. I recorded it straight into Logic Pro X, and immediately bounced it back out as an MP3 .. and now here ...

Kevin

I appreciate you taking the time to write all that.

So, I have done basically what you said about tweaking the amp from scratch and etc. I also understand that axe fx lets you push things way harder than conventional amps. I am well known for my guitar tone, and my mixes in general. I have been producing music for about 10 years and have done several albums which have been heard by hundreds of thousands of people worldwide. Basically I am just trying to say that I have a very great understanding of how to make a good mix and good guitar tones.

I have a Keith Merrow 7 string with a bare knuckle aftermath in the bridge. I wired it myself, and that might also be an issue. The thing is... I don't have any noise issues when running into my interface then into BIAS. It sounds clean and clear and brutal. The problem is just with the Axe Fx. I have tried several guitars (5 or more) and they all suffer from strange high pitched sounds. Of course I have never been using the proper cables this whole time, so I have yet to rule that out as a potential problem. I might just re-solder all of my connections to ensure there are not any cold solder points. I still don't feel that my wiring job would be the issue since the problem is across the board, however it is much worse with certain guitars.

It sounds to me like the cables might be my issue if what you say is true about your tone going from 0 to hero after getting quality cables. I know for a fact that I am not using the proper cables and that there is an electrical interference going on in my room since I have switched between outlets and seen much better results.

My main problem right now is that there is a very high pitched ringing sound when I do palm mutes. You can hear it in the tracks I posted above. I have since fixed it to the point that it's not ringing out loud like your standard amp feedback from being too close and too loud. Now it is just a subtle metallic ring when I palm mute that you can barely hear. To the trained ear it's there and I know its killing my tone. I need a perfectly clean signal going through the entire chain. Axe Fx doesn't seem to be very resilient in terms of having a clean signal / being able to deliver regardless of signal issues (My friend recorded a track with a guitar that was clipping and feeding back and you couldn't hear it at all when running through BIAS). My 5150 and when using BIAS through my interface both have no problems with this ringing business. I honestly believe I may have a defective unit.

I am going to try some new cables once I get some money and see if the issues go away. I will also re-solder everything and heat up each spot before applying solder. I never use flux, and I don't think it should be necessary for guitars? I am going to install my Nazghuls into my other guitar and see if there is any ringing problems with it. I hope you are right about the cables because I don't want to have to put my axe fx up for sale, but in its current state its pretty much useless. I am trying to have the best possible recordings since I run my own studio and get paid by bands to make their music. I have been doing it for years and have been using BIAS and TSE audio for my amps and always got great results. I want something more though. I want my guitars to really stand out and I want people to go "Damn thats great tone" and have it sound realistic. You can tell BIAS and TSE are fake and that bothers me albeit they sit in mixes so well.

SUMMARY:

I just get this very icepick type of tone when I palm mute my lowest string. It sounds horrendous. It sounds like taking a chisel to concrete or something cept very high pitch. It's the sound of the string not the note. Maybe this is my amp settings?

MAYBE ITS THE STRINGS IM USING? I have had this problem before where I could hear the same tone when my guitar wasn't even plugged in. I got new strings and it went away. I have stainless steel frets and an ebony fretboard. Ebony fretboards are very snappy with lots of pick attack. Perhaps I need to settle with a different set up pickups? I just don't know the answer here guys.

 

[KSPeace]

Awesome! I, as well, have found myself in the middle of being 'known' for my tones and excessive rigs. I was very apprehensive making this switch at first. I have shared a couple of my tones on my Facebook page which have been received extremely well from the regional guitar community and I still get the 'holy shit your tone is sick' comments. So, you don't have to have an Axe Fx II to get out there and play with the big boys, you are a big boy yourself!

I will agree .. if the problems you are having are somewhat consistent across different guitars, I would be less apt to think it was one of those as well. When I am soldering in guitar components, or any electrical components for that matter, I will use a rosin flux to clean and allow the solder to 'flow', it helps prevent those cold solder joints.

I don't think I would say that my tone with cables went from ZERO to hero ..... but to my ear they went from 3 to 7 and i got to hero status with good old fashioned tweaking!!!!

I can just make out the high pitched artifacting, but not much, but you've got your tone adjusted to try to compensate for it, so what I really hear is a LOT of sounds that are percussive and not as much the actually NOTE ... the tone .. the MEAT.

I think what you are noticing between the BIAS and the Axe Fx, and its inability to be resilient when you are having connectivity problems is the same, but from a different vantage point, of me saying its very transparent by means of letting the tone of your guitar and pickups shine thru, whereas the BIAS (as you said, it sounded fake) masks a lot more of that and outputs its recreation of your guitar sound. For the Axe to maintain its transparency, its unfortunately a casualty when it comes to all your peripherals having to be in top notch condition too.

Another thing ... I have EVERYTHING at my work station powered from a Monster Power Pro 2500 Power Conditioner ... did you not say that you kept bouncing around till you found an outlet that seemed less noisy?

Can you post a clip where your guitar tone has a little more presence on top, so I can really hear this ringing??

What amp sim are you running ..... gonna pull the Jackson out and see what i can dial in for this tone you are looking for .... then Ill send you the patch and have you record and post ... then i think we will be closer to comparing apples to apples .. no drums, no bass, just guitar so we can hear whats going down ...

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[viceboy]

UPDATE: So, I have to admit that my action was set on the other side of the neck... (Lol). I was getting a ton of buzzing from the strings. My theory is that when I palm muted my strings were buzzing and creating this high pitched sound. What I did (for now) is take a piece of receipt paper and lay it down inside the groove of my 7th string in the nut. What this did was raise up the height of the 7th string near the nut and VOILA!!!! There is no more string buzzing happening at all and the apparent high pitched ice pick from the lowest string is gone. This hasn't completely fixed all my issues, but that was a huge problem making the guitar sound like trash every time I palm muted.

Okay so the buzzing is gone, but the harmonic sound I get when playing the 6th string has gotten worse. It's like when you lightly tough a string and pluck and you get that natural harmonic sound. It doesn't sound exactly like that but close. This is very loud and gets picked up by the amp easily and it can be heard when the amp is off too. Why would raising the string at the nut cause this harmonic? It's so stupid and annoying its RUINING my tone. I am going to try different tunings to see if it helps.


I am using FAS modern and the 5150 patch. I have all my settings on pretty moderate with nothing cranked. I do utilize lots of mids and high ends in my patches since thats where guitars have most of their tone. But I don't ever put anything past 75%. I do put my presence up around 75% or higher I believe... maybe I could dial that back.


UPDATE: BINGO! I tried different tunings using my knowledge of music theory I knew that a harmonic has to be produced on certain places due to tension. I raised my tuning up a step and the harmonic went away. This is crazy. But any tunings lower and its still there. So a couple problems are down now. I am still paranoid that I might have a cold solder joint somewhere. I just have this bad feeling.

 

[KSPeace]

DUDE!!! THATS great!!! Sounds like you need to have that baby all set up ... i recently had to raise the nut on my main Ibanez RG3120 nearly .020" because i was getting some horrendous buzzing from the 2nd fret on the D string .. then I noticed that nearly all my neck relief had went to zero due to the last setup I did compounded by the seasonal changes.

What tuning are you using, and what gauge of string? Your guitar may be telling you it needs a heavier string ... maybe a half gauge up if a whole step nixed the harmonic overtone

 

[KSPeace]

And i will tell you, it sounds like BIAS was masking every bit of that, which is good and bad ... but I'm sure you'd really love to actually hear the freaking tone of those Bareknuckle pickups you invested in!!!

It sounds like you may be on your way there!!! YAY!

 

[viceboy]

I am playing fairly heavy gauges I believe its a .12 gauge set. I can throw on a super thick low string. Honestly I think I have learned enough now that I am almost certain that my issue is a signal to noise ratio problem. The amount of background noise bleeding into my tracks is hurting my tone and likewise the "good" signal with my tone isn't cutting through enough. I have an idea... I know that I have to have my input set high enough so that the signal going in isn't "weak" but I wonder if I can get the input down just low enough and make up for the rest of it in the drive pedal and amp volume... this in theory should give me a better signal to noise ratio even though that goes directly against what people have been trained to do. You are supposed to get your input signal loud enough without clipping so the background noise is negated... in this case my issues are coming FROM the input signal.

I am just in drop A standard for my 7 string. I was in Ab and thats when I was getting a harmonic from the low E string even though I wasn't fretting it.

Well I used to raise the nut on my other guitars as soon as I bought them. I thought the KM-7 would come set up correct from the factory so I never put two and two together. How did you raise your nut? I know the piece of paper in the grooves is really ghetto and is going to cause slippage. Is there a better way for me to do this? The neck on this baby is dead flat and all my buzzing was being caused by the apparent slope from the nut to the bridge. Why would a $1000+ guitar have this issue? When I dropped down my saddles to have a lower action this compounded my buzzing problem. I thought to myself that somehow it must be my fault since I had an expensive guitar in my hands. I guess even expensive guitars have their fatal flaws. This is just STUPID though. I should be able to have an ultra low action without buzz when I pay for a guitar that is this much.

UPDATE: This paper trick in the nut has really saved the day man. There is no more annoying ass string buzzing and now I can lower my saddles again to get a nice low action and not have any buzz. Seriously. I am never buying another schecter guitar again in my life. I already told myself I wasn't going to buy another one (I have had 5 over my life) and I love and hate them. In the end I decided they are just knock off guitars for a lower price. I saw the Keith Merrow and I became a believer again. Now after these stupid problems I realize that the company has not changed and this guitar feels exactly like my old hellraiser. I am an ESP / Ibanez guy now. I even really like jacksons too, but they are like shecter as well with their annoying problems.

 

[KSPeace]

Truth be known, I have this in the front of my Axe Fx as a kicker for really low output pickups, and for a bit of midrange magic .. its not on all the time, but, its a tool I use especially on single coils ... IF you are trying to boost the signal BEFORE the Axe Fx ...



are you utilizing the noise gate in the axe fx? what kind of cables are you using from the guitar to the axe fx? how long?

 

[viceboy]

Truth be known, I have this in the front of my Axe Fx as a kicker for really low output pickups, and for a bit of midrange magic .. its not on all the time, but, its a tool I use especially on single coils ... IF you are trying to boost the signal BEFORE the Axe Fx ...



are you utilizing the noise gate in the axe fx? what kind of cables are you using from the guitar to the axe fx? how long?

I am using a 4 foot neutrik cable. Nothing special at all, but it looks gold plated, at least its golden in color. I am using the noise gate but I don't rely on it much. I silence everything by hand in my DAW in order to preserve my tone and sustain. I have the noise gate set so that I don't have to turn off my volume between takes. How did you go about raising your nut by the way?

I still am not getting the clarity and tone I want. There is still way too much background noise piercing through into my mixes. It's odd that BIAS doesn't have this problem but it makes sense since I am using all the correct cables with my interface and have a great signal to noise ratio. You can still hear all the same background noise with BIAS but when the distorted amp comes through it's completely gone. It's in the background... haha. With Axe Fx it's like the noise is equal volume with the distortion and the amp. This is a major problem and to me it sounds like a problem with the signal due to a bad connection or a defective unit.

When I make youtube videos about mixing I run a balanced headphone cable into the line in of my computers sound card. Needless to say there is a massive amount of electronic sounds that come through and are very loud. I end up with a dirty ass signal, but when cubase starts playing it's a lot less noticeable. I believe this is because I am using the correct cables at least so the dirty signal is outweighed by the clean signal. It only makes sense in my mind that Axe Fx is playing the dirty and clean signal at the same volume. How does this make sense or happen? It must be the cables or the axe fx is defective wouldn't you think?

 

[KSPeace]

You have something going on there .... I just plugged my headphones (Beyerdynamic DT770's and Sennheiser HD280's) straight into my computer and cranked the volume .. near total silence. It is quiet enough that even with both of those headphones being "isolation' cans to some degree, I could easily hear my soda opening as I twisted the cap from it. What sound I was getting, was just a bit of white noise "hiss" only because I had the volume maxed out. ...

no no no no .. hold on .. are you saying you are running your audio from your camera via a 3.5mm headphone cable into the line in of your computer sound card and you are getting all kinds of electronicky sounding artifacts?

OK, dimwitted question here ... are you SURE that your cables are all marked "instrument" cable and nothing is marked "speaker" ... because THAT will introduce a metric butt ton of trash into your signal!!! And if they are not marked, you cannot assume ... that 4 footer scares me, because that sounds like nearly the perfect length cable from going from one floor wedge to another, or from a bottom cab to top cab in a PA ....

 

[KSPeace]

I am honestly, starting to lean further away from it being an axe fx problem ... BIAS doesn't make all this noise, because it is done all internally ... it is more and more sounding like a cable problem ... potentially the adapter going from balanced to unbalanced (xld to 1/4").. you are going from a high impedance to a low impedance or vice versa ... which is a no no ...

The potential of having a speaker cable in the middle of the mix, which is unshielded and will bleed a friggin radio station into your rig if you have a strong enough signal close by.

You heard my Ratt-n-Roll clip there. That was a Marshall Plexi with the gain jacked up with a OD in front of it. The Axe's gate was VERY loose. I did not 'delete silence' or anything like that ... I recorded it direct and immediately bounced it out as an MP3 .. and that is a pretty clean recording.

 

[viceboy]

You have something going on there .... I just plugged my headphones (Beyerdynamic DT770's and Sennheiser HD280's) straight into my computer and cranked the volume .. near total silence. It is quiet enough that even with both of those headphones being "isolation' cans to some degree, I could easily hear my soda opening as I twisted the cap from it. What sound I was getting, was just a bit of white noise "hiss" only because I had the volume maxed out. ...

no no no no .. hold on .. are you saying you are running your audio from your camera via a 3.5mm headphone cable into the line in of your computer sound card and you are getting all kinds of electronicky sounding artifacts?

OK, dimwitted question here ... are you SURE that your cables are all marked "instrument" cable and nothing is marked "speaker" ... because THAT will introduce a metric butt ton of trash into your signal!!! And if they are not marked, you cannot assume ... that 4 footer scares me, because that sounds like nearly the perfect length cable from going from one floor wedge to another, or from a bottom cab to top cab in a PA ....

Were on 2 different pages right now. When I am doing youtube videos I run a regular 3.5mm cable into my soundcard. The line input of my soundcard picks up all kinds of weird noise. When I am just cranking the heaphones connected to my interface there is dead silence. 2 whole different things there. I just brought that up for some random reason to show how using the correct cables gives a better signal to noise ratio even if your signal was dirty in the first place. This cable has a tip and ring, no sleeve. So this is a mono cable and yeah it says instrument cable right on it, so no worries at all there. But on the contrary I am running from the XLR out on the axe fx a cable that is XLR to 1/4" mono. So, basically I am running an unbalanced cable from a balanced output. I read somewhere on the forums from a guy who knows a lot more about cables than me that I should get similar performance to a regular balanced XLR. I am not sure if I am buying that anymore.


So, I know I am not running the proper cable set up. I need a special cable that is an XLR to 1/4 TRS if I want to be running a balanced cable. My interface only has 2 XLR mic inputs that use the mic pre, and 2 line level inputs that are 1/4". This does pose a problem since I really need an XLR line input to utilize it properly. I am just thinking about getting a 2nd interface with XLR balanced input or SPDIF just for the axe fx input and synch the clocks of the two interfaces for playback and recording. This crap is starting to get stupid. I am likely going to sell the axe fx in 6 months or so and upgrade to an axe fx II unless some major headway can be made.

 

[KSPeace]

so, let me ask you this ... are you running that xlr to 1/4" adapter to expound on the 'performance' gains of using the XLR outs on the Axed FX? have you tried just using the 1/4" unbalanced outputs just to see if the noise issue goes away?

 

[viceboy]

so, let me ask you this ... are you running that xlr to 1/4" adapter to expound on the 'performance' gains of using the XLR outs on the Axed FX? have you tried just using the 1/4" unbalanced outputs just to see if the noise issue goes away?

I have not because I don't currently have the proper cables... hmmmmm. I do have a TRS cable actually that was for an old footpedal that I had. It had two TRS cables so that you could have two different switches on the pedal. I could try to use that and see what happens. Let me try that out. But I don't have any standard unbalanced cables that I can use and try laying around... haha I am fresh out of cables at the moment. I know the axe fx doesnt have any 1/4" balanced outputs unfortunately...

It really sucks that I can't use my balanced XLR cables with my interface. Both the XLR inputs on my interface are for microphones and use the mic pre on my interface. I was running it that way for months and not realizing that I was coloring my sound with the preamp on my interface. I wonder if there is a way to bypass the mic pre using XLR... I have tried it before and my interface doesn't recognize anything being plugged into the line, or instrument input when using XLR. Maybe there is something in the software that can bypass it I will have to look into it. Do you think just using a standard guitar cable (Mono unbalanced) and running it out of the unbalanced line input from the axe fx into my line inputs on my interface will work normally? I might have a working guitar cable laying around here but last time I checked my monster cable was shot.

UPDATE: I found a pedal cable.. its only like 6 inches long. I could get that hooked up to my interface if I put it on top of my axe fx. Do you think its worth a shot?

 

[KSPeace]

I'm looking at the directions for your Forte input loom now ... it says that both the 1/4" inputs are TRS, but are line/instrument inputs ... so yes, you should be able to plug your output from your Axe Fx straight into the 1/4" input with a mono cable, from everything i am reading

 

[viceboy]

Yeah I know you can do that but the problem is that my 1/4" cables I am using are stereo TRS. And the axe fx only has 1/4" mono unbalanced. So, I dug around in my closet and found an old guitar cable. It looks pretty decent and is pretty thick and shielded. I just plugged that into the unbalanced output on the axe fx and into my line input on my interface. It sounds BETTER. HAHAHA. This is so odd man. I am gonna check quick to be sure its not a placebo effect.

 

[viceboy]

It was placebo. I heard no tonal difference between using an instrument cable going into the line input on my interace and using the XLR to quarter inch adapter into my line input. They sounded exactly the same

Well either way I have made great progress tonight. I found an outlet that has almost no interference. I turned off the noisegate and when I aim my guitar to the left slightly it is almost dead silent. I also raised up my nut so that there is no more buzzing of the strings and tuned up half a step so there is no strange harmonics. I tracked a guitar part and everything sounds much tighter now and there aren't any strings buzzing on the frets in the background crapping up my tone. So, I am starting to believe that most of my issues were being cause by my guitars set up and the wall outlet.

Again, I am not completely satisfied by any means. I still feel like the tone I get from the axe fx is lacking compared to BIAS. BIAS has actual tone whereas when I am using axe fx it feels like there is a blanket over it and its muffled and weak in comparison. I believe this has something to do with how the signal is being passed through multiple analogue cables before getting to my daw. When I use BIAS I am only passing through ONE analogue cable (My guitar cable) and then it goes straight into BIAS. The digital nature of BIAS I believe helps cover up any of the bad noise or weak signal, because its digital and it has to process it as if it was a clean signal. I believe axe fx processes the signal a little differently and it behaves more like analogue equipment where what you put in is what you get out. I am going to try my 2 interface theory and try using SPDIF to record my axe fx rather than analogue cables and see if the signal is better preserved.


UPDATE:


This is my latest test. The high pitched ringing and general crap tone is gone. This is unmixed and unmastered without any bass.

 

[KSPeace]

Dude, that is light years better, that actually sounds pretty damn good for no post production!!!! I want more updates!!!!

 

[KSPeace]

OK, so I just got home from work and listened to it on actual speakers and not the iphone6 .. lol .. holy shit .. that sounds 10000 times better .... to my ears, it sounds most amp like of what I have heard yet of the clips you've put up!

And yes, everything the Axe Fx does, is a simulation of what the actual amp sounds like in all its analogue glory. Seeing its been a short spell since I was up close and personal with BIAS, I went to you tube and gave a listen with a fresh set of ears. Here are my thoughts:
Take a really hot chick, I'm talking smoking hot. Give her axe fx brand makeup, its just accentuates the beauty that is already there. You can still see that her skin is clear and that there is no doubt, she is just f-ing hot. Now let her go put on the BIAS brand makeup. She is still hot, but the makeup is so heavy, you start questioning if she is REALLY that hot, or are you looking at a walking Picasso. You know, like a porn star, when you see pics of them taken candidly while they are running to get more crack .. i mean milk, they are just TOTALLY a different person than your used to seeing.

Its not that BIAS is BAD, per se. AND its not wrong if you just personally like it better than the Axe Fx. Its all a matter of personal opinion and how your ears hear and process your sound.

In my opinion, That last clip you put up last night sounds more like a real amp and guitar, and of the guitar you can actually "hear the wood", than ANYTHING i listened to that had Positive Grid Bias on it. The bias sounds more like what you would imagine an electronic chromatic tone generator (think like a moog keyboard) would sound like pumping thru an overly cranked up distortion pedal. It reminds me of the keyboard work that Dream Theater has had accompanying John Petrucci over the last 25 years, when they are doing the dueling solo's. It's not that its bad, it just doesn't sound like its anything organic and rich.

Those are my thoughts ....

 

[viceboy]

Here are some minor improvements made to the mix. I did some EQ on the guitars and added some low end to the mix. I think the guitars sound nice and punchy yet realistic too. I think this patch is doing me well.

 

[KSPeace]

I agree ... I really like how those are coming along!!!! Awesome job!!!! Keep in the loop with updates!!!