POLL: The most accurate PAF replica...

[Churchhill]

I sat and watched that vid and I can't tell if the pickups were even changed out. I mean most if not all of that demo, one could pull off with pre and post EQ changes.

Yeah, with that level of gain, hard to hear any subtleties...

Try this one... it's a little better...

 

[Churchhill]

They didn't.

You can't really model inconsistencies without a randomizer. And that would be just as disconcerting as a PAF pickup that changed its characteristics randomly.

Exactly! I should have said non-linearities, a more precise description of what I meant. I was really just thinking aloud (well, typing) and trying to describe that a combination of environmental variables may result in slight differences in the winding pattern of a given coil when using a vintage winding machine vs a CNC winder, just as different materials used in resistors act in a non-linear way at different voltages (e.g. carbon comp vs ceramic), something that, if Fractal isn't modeling, it certainly sounds and feels like it, while other modelers sound more like a snapshot in time (e.g. impulse response vs a component-level model). (To be fair, I haven't tried all other modelers.)

Isn't there a random type in the LFO of a modifier? Great... now I'm thinking about ways to get my AxeFX to randomly change pickup characteristics...

 

[painkiller]

How would you compare the Haussel to the Mule? Since we've both got Mules, it might help me get a better handle on what the Haussel sounds like.

I didn't do many comparisons, but IMO the Häussel 1959s have a bit more bite, are rawer and they pronounce the pick attack a bit more than the Mules. I would use the Häussels rather for Rock, Hardrock, even Metal while I would use the Mules rather for Blues, Jazz, Rock.

I should add that I like PAF style pickups pretty close to the strings.

 

[SpudMan]

They make a sig set for the artist who’s tone you are after, im not quite sure why there’s a question here. Please post pics and clips when the build is done

It is just the cost of ThroBak's that is giving me pause. If they are truly exceptional then it would be fine. But if there are alternatives in the same quality ballpark, that are more consistent with what most pickups cost, that would be preferable. As i have mentioned elsewhere on the forum, all of my current guitars have Fralin pickups. I am VERY happy with the Fralin's, but just want to have a bit of variety. There are so many great choices, but as with all decisions, they all have pros and cons. I am intrigued by Vineham pickups. I just find it strange that they are so inexpensive. But maybe they are just fair and good people. Not sure. The Amber pickups seem interesting. But being in the USA, ordering from Germany seems dfifficult, and given so many alternatives, probably not the best approach.
Anyway, I will post the results of the build when it is completed. But the Warmoth lead times these days mean if I ordered everything today, I wouldn't even have the "parts" until 3.5 months from now. I hate that Warmoth takes 100% of your payment up front, but there is such a long lead time. But overall, given the quality of their stuff, and given the risks mentioned on this site with production guitars, it seems like a good idea given that I don't care about resale.

 

[Dixiethedog]

One of the PAF style pickups I forgot that I had and forgot to mention are some Tim Shaw 1981 (Les Paul Heritage series 80) ones that I have. What are the opinions on these?

One thing that I have notices (when I swapped out pups in a LP the other day) is that the wiring (or my case, a horrible quick connection board thing) must make a huge difference. When I was using the Gibson 498/490 (or whatever they are called) I did not find much difference whether the tone knob was at 10 or at 2. Now with the newly installed PAF style pickups the tone controls make a lot of difference. With the bridge tone on 10 it almost cuts your head off. Time I think for the purchase of some proper pots and to throw the quick connect into the bin!

 

[Budda]

@SpudMan find a used set? Probably save 40% and shipping at that point. High end pickups seem to get resold reasonably often.

@Dixiethedog that reads more like modern vs 50s wiring rather than the quick-connect imo.

 

[Andy Eagle]

At the moment in paf I have;
set of
1961 originals
Throbak 101
lollar Imperial
Tom Holmes
Ron Ellis
Duncan custom shop made by Seymour in the 90s
Dimarzio 36
Dimarzio paf classic
Duncan 59
Duncan Antiquaty
Gibson custom buckers
I think that's it.

 

[Del Pedro]

At the moment in paf I have;
set of
1961 originals
Throbak 101
lollar Imperial
Tom Holmes
Ron Ellis
Duncan custom shop made by Seymour in the 90s
Dimarzio 36
Dimarzio paf classic
Duncan 59
Duncan Antiquaty
Gibson custom buckers
I think that's it.

May I ask how you like the DiMarzios? Not how accurately they model a PAF, but if they generally sound good?
I have found that I liked most of the DiMarzio pickups that I have owned, but did not like most of the Duncans.

 

[Andy Eagle]

May I ask how you like the DiMarzios? Not how accurately they model a PAF, but if they generally sound good?
I have found that I liked most of the DiMarzio pickups that I have owned, but did not like most of the Duncans.

The 36 is quite good ( they all are) sounding and a general purpose low output pickup but it doesn't have the three dimensional qualities of the Throbak.

 

[Sixstring]

Yeah, with that level of gain, hard to hear any subtleties...

Try this one... it's a little better...

At least in this vid you can see that the pickups have actually been changed out! To be honest the sounds aren't that drastically different and definitely very subtle.

I think if you get close to a PAF style the rest you can play with volume and tone or pre and post EQ and get where you want to be. At this point I would be looking for the one that does this without breaking the bank! It seems as of late custom wound pickups have got pretty spendy.

 

[Andy Eagle]

At least in this vid you can see that the pickups have actually been changed out! To be honest the sounds aren't that drastically different and definitely very subtle.

I think if you get close to a PAF style the rest you can play with volume and tone or pre and post EQ and get where you want to be. At this point I would be looking for the one that does this without breaking the bank! It seems as of late custom wound pickups have got pretty spendy.

The three dimensional thing is mainly an in the room with a great one channel high end tube amp and no fx. That is a least where it will be very obvious as to the better ones. In a mix or on a you tube video you may hardly tell the difference. These things are for us to please ourselves with because all of these are good pickups.

 

[Sixstring]

The three dimensional thing is mainly an in the room with a great one channel high end tube amp and no fx. That is a least where it will be very obvious as to the better ones. In a mix or on a you tube video you may hardly tell the difference. These things are for us to please ourselves with because all of these are good pickups.

Yup totally agree! It's always in a sterile listing environment playing through a good amp where you can really tell the subtle differences! Once in the context of a mix it kind of goes out the window, been there done that.

 

[Budda]

Would love for Andy to try the vineham sweet59 or royal sets to compare tonally to the throbaks etc.

My royals arent currently installed, but I would have to hear a “3D vs 2D “ clip to know what Im looking for. I think the handwired JTM-45 covers the amp side hehe.

 

[GuitarAng3l]

Yeah, I was looking at the O-Tone, too. I do like A4 magnets and I've got the Slash sound covered, looking for something brighter in the neck. This set sounds like something I'd be very interested in.

Than the O-Tone Bridge and Spirit Neck combo is 100% what youre searching for. But you can always write them an email, Fabian the head behind Amber is a really great dude.

For the P90... it really depends on the guitar, my favorite are the Ambers because they sit roughly in the middle. Especially with the SG which are normally more mid focussed I would choose them over the Häussels. But again: It depends

 

[SpudMan]

At the moment in paf I have;
set of
1961 originals
Throbak 101
lollar Imperial
Tom Holmes
Ron Ellis
Duncan custom shop made by Seymour in the 90s
Dimarzio 36
Dimarzio paf classic
Duncan 59
Duncan Antiquaty
Gibson custom buckers
I think that's it.

Subjective, I know, but do you think the ThroBak's are "worth" double the cost of the Lollar Imperials? I have no issue paying the higher price for the ThroBak's if they are really much "better".

 

[Churchhill]

I didn't do many comparisons, but IMO the Häussel 1959s have a bit more bite, are rawer and they pronounce the pick attack a bit more than the Mules. I would use the Häussels rather for Rock, Hardrock, even Metal while I would use the Mules rather for Blues, Jazz, Rock.

I should add that I like PAF style pickups pretty close to the strings.

Cool, good to know. I love The Mules, but I wouldn't mind if they had a little more bite sometimes. Definitely along the lines I'm looking for.

Me, too, almost always. I learned a lot about how sensitive they are when setting up my set of BKP Riff Raffs. Spent a lot of time tweaking both the height of the pickup itself and each pole screw. The end result was that I got it sounding exactly the way I wanted, but it really surprised me along the way how much bite and/or body I could add or remove with such small adjustments. Now, I do that on all my PAF-equipped guitars and it's really made a difference across the board.

 

[Churchhill]

It is just the cost of ThroBak's that is giving me pause. If they are truly exceptional then it would be fine. But if there are alternatives in the same quality ballpark, that are more consistent with what most pickups cost, that would be preferable. As i have mentioned elsewhere on the forum, all of my current guitars have Fralin pickups. I am VERY happy with the Fralin's, but just want to have a bit of variety. There are so many great choices, but as with all decisions, they all have pros and cons. I am intrigued by Vineham pickups. I just find it strange that they are so inexpensive. But maybe they are just fair and good people. Not sure. The Amber pickups seem interesting. But being in the USA, ordering from Germany seems dfifficult, and given so many alternatives, probably not the best approach.

Sounds like we're in similar places. I'm happy with my BKPs, Duncans, Fralins, Lollars, and Gibsons, but would like some new blood so to speak (variety). I know that the last 5% of quality is 95% of the cost (can't remember where I heard that, but it seems to have some truth), so the question is, is that last 5% worth it, to me or to you or to anyone. Like you, if the result is truly exceptional, I'm fine with that. This thread grew out of my "frustration" with having so many choices that largely seemed to all be valid. If a PAF was a single thing with a narrow set of parameters... but it's not, so it makes the playing field that much larger.

As many here have said, there are a number of winders who are definitely achieving the PAF sound. Vineham is well reviewed, but I can understand what you mean about them being inexpensive. I would guess that they're using off-the-shelf components to build their pickups (it seems both StewMac and Mojo have all the parts one would need, and I haven't even looked for other options). I would also guess that Throbak (et al) is expensive because they are recouping costs from using custom metals, magnets, etc., in their effort to be more "authentic." Does either approach negate either being a true "PAF" style pickup? I don't think so. Do all those custom components make a difference that one can hear? Well, depends on how good one's ears are, but I think it does, but those are nuances and may or may not be important to me, you, or anyone.

There really seems to be about 3 different price points (without considering things below the "average" pickup, say $125 each). There are a number of options that are right about "average" or about $200-$300 a set. Then there are another group that are above average in cost, say $400-$600 a set. Then there are a handful that are in the stratosphere, say $800-$1000 a set. Any of those pale in comparison to used sets from some winders no longer in business (Tom Holmes, OTPG, etc.), and look miniscule in comparison to actual vintage PAFs or even their later variants.

FWIW, while I haven't ordered anything from Amber, I have ordered from several businesses in Germany (notably Thomann) and have never had any issues. If you use a credit card, you still have the protections that card/bank offers you, and any customs duties were handled by the shipper (DHL, FedEx, UPS, USPS).

 

[Dave Merrill]

High price is actually a positive selling point in some circles. Just not mine

 

[Churchhill]

One of the PAF style pickups I forgot that I had and forgot to mention are some Tim Shaw 1981 (Les Paul Heritage series 80) ones that I have. What are the opinions on these?

One thing that I have notices (when I swapped out pups in a LP the other day) is that the wiring (or my case, a horrible quick connection board thing) must make a huge difference. When I was using the Gibson 498/490 (or whatever they are called) I did not find much difference whether the tone knob was at 10 or at 2. Now with the newly installed PAF style pickups the tone controls make a lot of difference. With the bridge tone on 10 it almost cuts your head off. Time I think for the purchase of some proper pots and to throw the quick connect into the bin!

Yeah, I've got a couple of patent-stamp pickups that I believe are from the Tim Shaw era. A couple are PAF-like and I've got some original Dirty Fingers, too (love those, but for a completely different reason, definitely not PAFs). I've also got some of the tar-filled ones that I believe were designed by Bill Lawrence. All are OK, but don't quite have the liveliness I'm looking for, which I attribute to how heavily they are potted (in the case of the tar-backs at least). Some people really seem to like these, though, especially in the Heritage 80s, which are really cool for a number of reasons.

498s aren't nearly as bright as most PAFs, but not exactly dull, either. And definitely, good pots and good caps are a worthwhile upgrade, but those circuit boards Gibson uses could be a lot worse and quick-connects shouldn't be causing that much difference if they're not damaged. I'll second @Budda with the recommendation of '50s-style wiring (basically, how the tone cap is connected), really helps with coaxing a lot of colors out of PAFs. Easier to take highs away than add them where they never existed, I think.

Edit: typo

 

[SpudMan]

Sounds like we're in similar places. I'm happy with my BKPs, Duncans, Fralins, Lollars, and Gibsons, but would like some new blood so to speak (variety). I know that the last 5% of quality is 95% of the cost (can't remember where I heard that, but it seems to have some truth), so the question is, is that last 5% worth it, to me or to you or to anyone. Like you, if the result is truly exceptional, I'm fine with that. This thread grew out of my "frustration" with having so many choices that largely seemed to all be valid. If a PAF was a single thing with a narrow set of parameters... but it's not, so it makes the playing field that much larger.

As many here have said, there are a number of winders who are definitely achieving the PAF sound. Vineham is well reviewed, but I can understand what you mean about them being inexpensive. I would guess that they're using off-the-shelf components to build their pickups (it seems both StewMac and Mojo have all the parts one would need, and I haven't even looked for other options). I would also guess that Throbak (et al) is expensive because they are recouping costs from using custom metals, magnets, etc., in their effort to be more "authentic." Does either approach negate either being a true "PAF" style pickup? I don't think so. Do all those custom components make a difference that one can hear? Well, depends on how good one's ears are, but I think it does, but those are nuances and may or may not be important to me, you, or anyone.

There really seems to be about 3 different price points (without considering things below the "average" pickup, say $125 each). There are a number of options that are right about "average" or about $200-$300 a set. Then there are another group that are above average in cost, say $400-$600 a set. Then there are a handful that are in the stratosphere, say $800-$1000 a set. Any of those pale in comparison to used sets from some winders no longer in business (Tom Holmes, OTPG, etc.), and look miniscule in comparison to actual vintage PAFs or even their later variants.

FWIW, while I haven't ordered anything from Amber, I have ordered from several businesses in Germany (notably Thomann) and have never had any issues. If you use a credit card, you still have the protections that card/bank offers you, and any customs duties were handled by the shipper (DHL, FedEx, UPS, USPS).

I agree 100% with what you say! Fralin seems to be in the middle tier you describe. Same with Lollar. Lollar Imperials are an interesting option to me. I played a Collings 290 with P90 Lollar's and it sounded really, really nice. I haven't heard the Imperials. But I am wondering if choosing Lollar's over say Fralin's, just for the variety, is worth it. I really do love my various Fralin pickups, and working with Fralin is always really easy. So for me either there is a mid tier option that is high quality, but different form Fralin's, that would be great. Otherwise, if they are truly "better', I would "prefer" to spend extra for something like the ThroBak's.