POLL: The most accurate PAF replica...

[axes]

I can definitely relate to doing a lot of research but not having tried everything... there are so many options these days and it's not always easy to tell what is marketing and what is actually a worthwhile purchase. Tom Doyle certainly has the credentials!

Thanks for that video, too! I've watched a number of his videos and think they're pretty good. At least the recording seems well done and consistent, as is the playing and the guitar. Makes it a little easier to judge one set against another, but even then, it's kind of grabbing at straws. None of them will sound the same in my guitar under my fingers, if you know what I mean. That's part of why I started this thread, just to find out what others' actual experiences have been. If someone makes a personal connection with a pickup, maybe I could, too, and would be something I'd want to consider, if that makes sense.

I mean I partially get what you mean but at the same time this is essentially the point of these comparisons. Same player, same strings, same guitar, same amp, cab, speaker, effects, same recording environment. This really shows what stuff sounds like in comparison which gives you a very fair chance at assessing characteristics.

 

[Churchhill]

I mean I partially get what you mean but at the same time this is essentially the point of these comparisons. Same player, same strings, same guitar, same amp, cab, speaker, effects, same recording environment. This really shows what stuff sounds like in comparison which gives you a very fair chance at assessing characteristics.

Yep, exactly! That's why videos like that are valuable. I know my milage is going to vary, but at least videos like that give me a baseline.

Edit: typo

 

[Churchhill]

I've been researching PAFs and replicas for years

I'm curious... what other winders have you looked into and what are your thoughts on them?

PAFs are an interesting subject, I think. There are so many variables, but I'm not sure that isn't due to supply chain issues (magnets, wire, manufacturing tolerances, etc.), process improvements (winding machines, auto-stop and counter mechanisms, changing materials, etc.), and other things related to mass manufacturing a new component (humbuckers as opposed to P90s and earlier designs). Do all those things matter? I think so, but I don't think they were the result of quality control issues or sloppiness on Gibson's part.

So, between 4 or 5 different winding machines each with a different pattern resulting in different amounts of scatter, maybe 8 different magnets of varying composition and size, varying degrees of over or under winding, and varying degrees of coil offset due to every coil being at least somewhat different, there could easily be over 300 variations that all sound somewhat different.

However, there are some characteristics that are common, like the pronounced attack, "double tones," clarity, and "airiness" that, to me, aren't too different from the P90s that proceeded the humbucker. I've heard that that was one of the design parameters Ted McCarty gave to Seth Lover, to keep the "Gibson" sound but without the hum (if that's true, I have no idea).

Also, I don't believe that any came from the factory potted with wax or any other substance and this does make a difference in the sound. Unpotted pickups do have the ability to act as a microphone detecting the acoustic sound of the guitar in addition to electrically transducing the string vibrations and I can definitely hear the difference on my own guitars. I understand why people started potting pickups, but it does change the sound. Whether that's a desirable thing depends on the situation and the player.

So then, we're left with the broad differences between the original combinations... some are brighter, more/less mid-focused, higher/lower output, fuller, warmer... a many other somewhat subjective descriptions. And that's where it all comes down to personal opinion. What works for me on one guitar may not work for me on another, and may not work at all for anyone else. But, like we were saying about the video you posted earlier, having some comparative baseline goes a long way toward being able to judge what might work for a particular guitar or a particular player. That's also why I'm interested in everyone's opinion here, if something worked well for someone, it might work well for someone else.

If nothing else, PAFs (and pickups in general) are something I've been enjoying thinking about and researching for a long time, too!

 

[Dixiethedog]

Spirit Pickups, if I'm not mistaken. Have you tried them? Certainly look interesting!

I was due to buy a set recently when by chance I met a pickup maker at a guitar show who offered to make me some PAF style pups which sounded like a nice idea, so I ordered a set. I have a bare husk of a Les Paul (late 70's Norlin era) which is crying out for a set of Alan's pickups. He is local to me so I will try to arrange an appointment to pay him a visit soon. The demos that I have seen of his Peter Green style PAF's all sound amazing and being a P Green/Gary Moore fan should hit the sonic spot for me!

 

[Budda]

Original ones vary as has been said - so OP will likely be trying a few sets.

I have no intention of paying 2k for pickups unless they are in a guitar lol. Given the budget, buy something like rewind sheptone or throback and then compare them to vineham sweet 59 and royal sets

 

[Churchhill]

I was due to buy a set recently when by chance I met a pickup maker at a guitar show who offered to make me some PAF style pups which sounded like a nice idea, so I ordered a set. I have a bare husk of a Les Paul (late 70's Norlin era) which is crying out for a set of Alan's pickups. He is local to me so I will try to arrange an appointment to pay him a visit soon. The demos that I have seen of his Peter Green style PAF's all sound amazing and being a P Green/Gary Moore fan should hit the sonic spot for me!

Yeah, I saw a couple of YT demos yesterday of that Green/Moore set and they sounded great!

Sometimes, trying to compare things on YT can be a crapshoot. In the case of pickups, though, I think I can tell a little about how responsive they are by watching how hard or soft they're being played, regardless of the quality of the recording. What I can't see in most is where the controls are set. I think, maybe more than any other type of pickup, PAFs are very sensitive to volume and tone changes, especially with '50s wiring. What's difficult to tell is what the tone is actually like, but that would be true of actual PAFs, too. How the bass and treble hold together, double-tones, things like that are easier to hear. As @axes mentioned earlier, finding demos where it's the same player, same recording chain, same amp, sometimes even the same guitar, are worth their weight in gold.

Speaking of double-tones... does anyone know what causes that? I'm wondering if it has to do with the phase differences caused by the two coils sensing different parts of the string, which could be further affected by differences in coil geometry, the offset between the two coils, and how microphonic they are. But, I really have no idea.

 

[Churchhill]

Original ones vary as has been said - so OP will likely be trying a few sets.

I have no intention of paying 2k for pickups unless they are in a guitar lol. Given the budget, buy something like rewind sheptone or throback and then compare them to vineham sweet 59 and royal sets

Probably a few sets, I've got three guitars that I think would benefit from these, so yeah, probably a few.

I really just threw out $2k just to try to keep the discussion away from finding some originals. Honestly, I think much more than $500 a set is crazy, it's just magnets and wire, but I am willing to pay for the last 2% of quality, if (and that's a big if) it's really worth it in terms of tone and what it inspires me to play.

You bring up a really good point, though. What I'm hoping to at least attempt to avoid is buying 3-4 $200-300 sets than I know nothing about. That could easily add up to over $1000 and no guaranty of any of them being more inspiring than a set of Throbaks or ReWinds at $800+. If (another big if) a crazy-money set would've gotten me closer to where I want to be, then it makes more sense to me to spend the $800 and be done with it instead of spending $1200 on 4 less expensive sets and still not be satisfied.

Having said that, I do not believe that price is directly related to quality. While I understand that some winders are recouping development costs and small batches of custom alloy magnets are more expensive than OTS imports, I have also played $200 mass produced guitars that would hold their own or better against $6000 handmade guitars. I have played some $6000 guitars that were worth every penny, too, and I have played some that would have made better firewood.

Anyway, I think you've got a couple of sets of Vinehams and @lscottk ordered some. I've listened to your Soundcloud demos, too, and they definitely sound good. As a player, having them under your hands, how do they feel? Some pickups are challenging because they fight back and show every mistake while others almost play themselves.

Do you know if Mike Turk is still winding?

From the other thread, I was wondering if @Dave Merrill might answer the same question about his Throbaks... how do they feel under the hands? That tactile feeling is something I could never get from a demo, but to me is fundamental to how I'm going to get along with a pickup (or guitar or anything, really).

Ref: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/pickup-suggestions-for-knaggs-severn-h-s-h.205288/

I was wondering when someone would bring up ReWind. James does share a lot of info and I've read the book he and Mario Milan wrote. He's been doing a really interesting series on YT with a bunch of vintage effects pedals lately, too. For that matter, Jon Gundry from Throbak has a ton of info on his site and has done a lot of interesting videos, too. I particularly enjoyed his series on the various winding machines.

 

[Dave Merrill]

@Churchhill Well, I can't really answer your question about the Throbaks in my Collings, since I've never played that guitar with other pickups, or those pickups in another guitar.

That said, as you've probably seen me say, I definitely dig the guitar, which is kind of the best evidence. Of exactly what is the question though

If I was going to suggest anything to myself, I'd say the neck pickup could * maybe * use a little less low end, but that's probably down to me liking too much fatness on my bridge pickup. It's extremely unlikely I'll actually swap those pickups out though, given how much I like that guitar as is, and not wanting to monkey up what for me was a pretty expensive axe.

If it was me I'd try the Vinehams. Priced right, great rep, responsive company.

 

[Churchhill]

@Dave Merrill Thanks! That's a great review and endorsement of what they've done for you! I agree, if it's not broke, don't fix it. That fact that it's working so well as part of the whole system, I think that's a very important part of the original recipe. I've sometimes wondered if there would be so much fascination with PAFs if they hadn't originally come attached to such a great (iconic) guitar. It was the whole system. I've had some pickups that, while great on their own, just felt like they were a separate entity, that they were somehow fighting or overpowering the guitar. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not quite what I'm looking for here.

I think what started me on this quest at the moment is that I've got a guitar with Gibson MHS Humbuckers in it and my wife absolutely loves that guitar. Well, I love it, too (it's truly a fantastic guitar, tons of attitude and mojo apparent from the first note I played), but I have another that I love equally for different reasons and my wife doesn't because it doesn't have the character that the MHS does. I agree, it doesn't sound as good when it's plugged in. So, what could I do to improve it? It plays so well, possibly the most in-tune guitar I've ever played, everywhere on the neck, and it sound great unplugged. If I could just get some MHS for it, I probably would've and been done, but they're not made anymore and seem to be hard to find. So, what else is out there? Oh, so many options... and without buying 20 different sets just to try them, I've done a lot of looking and thought getting some others' opinions would help, too.

At this point, I may well try the Vinehams, maybe some Wolfetones, too. The AmberPickups, Tyson Tones, Spirits, Sheptones, and Sheds all look good to me, too. And I'll probably try some Throbaks and/or ReWinds. Just haven't made up my mind, yet, I'm enjoying the conversations both here and the other thread, and I'm not really in any hurry. If I had money to burn, I'd try about 20 or 30 sets. But, I've blown a lot of money in the past trying things I thought would be good enough when I could've just bought two or three of what I eventually ended up with and still saved time (specifically, mic pre-amps, but that's a whole other story). In any case, this has helped me narrow the field.

 

[Hamsworld]

Nobody is mentioning Kloppmann Pickups? Crazy ...

 

[Dave Merrill]

I hear you.

One of the kinda big things I love about the Axe is that I can go shopping/exploring without leaving my chair, waiting, paying any money, getting angsty about whether I made the right choice, or whether I should have been buying anything in the first place.

Don't forget to have fun with this project!

 

[Churchhill]

I thought about Kloppmann and Haeussel when @yek and @GuitarAng3l mentioned AmberPickups. All three are German winders, I believe.

What's your experience with Kloppman? They look well made and certainly along the lines of what I'm looking for. As with the other German winders, it's been a little more difficult to find good demos or reviews of them.

https://www.kloppmann-electrics.com/en/pickups/paf-humbucker/
https://haeussel.com/index.php?id=22&L=1&tt_products[cat]=19&cHash=3e9fc0696a2d852abf5dca62cb4ad44f
https://www.amberpickups.com/en/product-page/spirit-of-59-set

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I really like the pickups in my PRS DGT core model. They're based on PAFs in David Grissom's old ES-335 and remind me of the sound of the PAF pickups in an early 60s ES-345 I had.

You can't buy them from PRS, they're only available on the guitar, or occasionally someone will sell a set from their DGT on Reverb or somewhere, but they're usually expensive.

 

[Churchhill]

One of the kinda big things I love about the Axe is that I can go shopping/exploring without leaving my chair, waiting, paying any money, getting angsty about whether I made the right choice, or whether should been buying anything in the first place.

Don't forget to have fun with this project!

Oh, man, if I could tweak pickups like we can tweak amps, effects, and cabs in the Axe... I still don't think I'll ever get tired of trying everything that's available and I've had my Axe for 3.5 years now. It's so easy to find something and just get lost in it for hours.

And yeah, I'm definitely having fun with this latest quest. One of the things I've enjoyed the most is switching back and forth between the guitars I have that do have PAF-like pickups and trying them with many different amps. I think it's helping me further develop dynamics and phrasing. Even without spending a penny or heating up my soldering iron, it's been an inspiring search and has helped me enjoy and appreciate the tools I already do have.

 

[Churchhill]

I really like the pickups in my PRS DGT core model. They're based on PAFs in David Grissom's old ES-335 and remind me of the sound of the PAF pickups in an early 60s ES-345 I had.

You can't buy them from PRS, they're only available on the guitar, or occasionally someone will sell a set from their DGT on Reverb or somewhere, but they're usually expensive.

That's an interesting thought... I've got a set of 57/08s and a set of 53/10s that I replaced with BKPs years ago. I was wondering if they were worth another look, but haven't gotten around to reinstalling them. Do you have any experience with either of those, maybe as a common reference point with the DGTs?

Those DGTs are really nice guitars! I met David Grissom a couple of times at the Dallas Guitar Show years ago. Really nice guy, too, even after my wife accidentally ran over him in the elevator! One hell of a guitar player, too!

 

[Budda]

I will post a proper reply once the house is quieter.

Short version: “does what it says on the tin” haha.

 

[framos]

After years down this "best PAF" rabbit hole, here's what I've learned, for what it's worth:

1. "PAF" pickups varies a lot in terms of sound. Different magnets, windings, turns.... so to me "PAF" is a ballpark, not a specific target.
2. Building a pickup is not rocket science, and the PAF construction and materials are very well known.

That being said, most of the builders described here build "true" PAFs, using correct materials, technique and even machinery.

To me, once within the PAF ballpark, it's all about finding what find best to your years, what you expect from a pickup to sound and react to touch, how it does match your particular guitar, the desired output, the preferred attack response etc...

YMMV. Cheers.

 

[Churchhill]

After years down this "best PAF" rabbit hole, here what I learned, for what it's worth:

1. "PAF" pickups varies a lot in terms of sound. Different magnets, windings, turns.... so to me "PAF" is a ballpark, not a specific target.
2. Building a pickup is not rocket science, and the PAF construction and materials are very well known.

That being said, most of the builders described here build "true" PAFs, using correct materials, technique and even machinery.

To me, once within the PAF ballpark, it's all about finding what find best to your years, what you expect from a pickup to sound and react to touch, how it does match your particular guitar, the desired output, the preferred attack response etc...

YMMV. Cheers.

Absolutely! Maybe even several ballparks... there were many points along the evolution of the PAF that were unique, but not necessarily better or worse and all authentic. I think most of the changes were to facilitate manufacturing, not necessarily to change the sound, although that happened to a greater or lesser degree as a consequence of those changes.

What have you found that works for you?

For instance, I used to think that I preferred slightly overwound PAFs, but when I've measured the resistance of the examples I like the sound of, I've found that all were under 8k. Also, I've thought for almost 30 years that I like at least a moderate amount of offset between the coils. Measuring, though, again provided some insight in that the examples that I like the best have coils that are within 100 ohms, usually less. Same for neck vs. bridge, always thought I liked "compensated" sets with a lower output neck, again to be proven wrong. Maybe I shouldn't be too surprised by that last observation because I've always been able to balance neck and bridge by adjusting overall height.

Maybe the most surprising thing I've learned is that I like brighter pickups. I'd been going out of my way to find smoother or more even response from bass to treble (I hate fizz and that was one way to deal with it). Sure, some pickups can be harsh and thin, and I still don't care for that, but I've found that having an extended, pronounced high end gives me the attack that I'm looking for.

The good news is that it seems that, as long as I select a winder who uses quality components, as you and many have pointed out most mentioned in this thread do, I'll be in the ballpark and it really just comes down to what works best for me.

The better news is that this journey has already helped me better understand what I'm looking for and how I use what I have now. I'm really enjoying finding out about everyone else's experiences, too. Keep it coming!!

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I've got a set of 57/08s and a set of 53/10s that I replaced with BKPs years ago. I was wondering if they were worth another look

I have a 57/08 in a PRS Studio and it's a bit more aggressive than the 58/15TM pickups that are in my SC245, which I also like. I haven't heard or played the 53/10.

My PRS Special Semi-Hollow has the 58/15 LT pickups, and that's an awesome guitar, both in playability and its sound. I don't know how those pickups compare spec-wise to the DGT pickups, but both sound somethin' wonderful through the modeler and are easily my favorites.

 

[Churchhill]

I have a 57/08 in a PRS Studio and it's a bit more aggressive than the 58/15TM pickups that are in my SC245, which I also like. I haven't heard or played the 53/10.

My PRS Special Semi-Hollow has the 58/15 LT pickups, and that's an awesome guitar, both in playability and its sound. I don't know how those pickups compare spec-wise to the DGT pickups, but both sound somethin' wonderful through the modeler and are easily my favorites.

It's been probably 7-8 years since I replaced my 57/08s, but that aggressiveness seems to be what I remember not liking about them at the time. Just seemed a little too sharp to me, while the 53/10s seemed a little too polite. However, my tastes have evolved since then and I'm curious what I'd think of them now.

Also makes me want to try a DTG again... I've liked PRS since I first played one back in the '90s and have several.