Picking Technique

[henryrobinett]

Further and in general, I've found a lot of guitar players have a problem with rhythm. And I think a lot of it stems from not understanding down and upstroke in relationship to phrasing. Of course you can start a phrase on a downbeat with an up stroke. It'll give the music a certain off kilter characteristic. But you know what you're doing if you do it on purpose. You're playing off kilter. Playing to the music means downbeats are articulated a certain way. And if you're playing syncopated the rule often still applies. If you picking is all over the place, whether lines or playing rhythm guitar, your articulation and phrasing is going to more than likely sound confused, unclear, unfocused and not have great rhythmic direction.

Trying to make all down strokes sound exactly like upstrokes is impossible and counter intuitive. They're different and need to sound different.

 

[clarky]

I've found that "one size does not fit all"

it's one thing to practice specific techniques individually but do not lose sight of the fact that this is an exercise..
when it comes to playing in a performance setting with real licks and riffs things can be very different..

some licks work best all alternate, others mix alternate with legato and non-alternate..
some licks work better alternate picked but you start picking with an upstroke even though the first note may be on the beat..

different picking techniques offer different playing 'experiences' and often different tonal qualities
sometimes I'll layout a specific path of technique choices for tonal reasons
other times it'll be simply because it's the only way I can reliably execute the lick

try not to get stuck in a single approach
when working on new licks for the first time it is well worth experimenting
although generally, the optimum picking technique will quickly present itself to you because you'll feel it's the natural thing to do..

alt picking / strumming tip:
picking 'air' really can help with note placement / timing / phrasing
this means thatr although a note may still be sounding, or you are playing a 'rest', continue to pick but move the pick away from the strings..
your can consider your picking hand as functioning a lot like a drummer's hihat hand because it has all your timing information..
so be picking air where no notes start sounding you can have precise awareness of time
I do this when strumming as well as with alternate picking [as this is essentially alternate picking with greater width]

 

[clarky]

Further and in general, I've found a lot of guitar players have a problem with rhythm. And I think a lot of it stems from not understanding down and upstroke in relationship to phrasing..

I have seen a fair few legato centric players [Satch fan types] that shred almost exclusively with legato..
and they almost all suffer with the same fundamental prob...

when up and in-flight they can sound real impressive...
but when they switch to riffing / rhythm playing they suddenly make a transition to super novice
and it's all because they failed to develop their picking hand..

we can all fling our fingers around in Em, but I think the things that differentiate the players that are [or sound like] pro's are:
- timing / phrasing
- bending / vibrato

these lil' gems are the difference between sounding solid and polished.. or... not I guess..

 

[stratamania]

we can all fling our fingers around in Em, but I think the things that differentiate the players that are [or sound like] pro's are:
- timing / phrasing
- bending / vibrato

these lil' gems are the difference between sounding solid and polished.. or... not I guess..

Made me think of this. Sometimes a plectrum just is too much plastic...

 

[henryrobinett]

The MOST important thing is rhythmic phrasing. This is what gets lost in all these nerdy quests for picking methods. It's all in the application. And whatever you use you must think and apply rhythmic phrasing. 16th note patterns have a natural rhythmic phrase, unless they're unusual. The downbeat is generally BEST articulated as a downstroke. Getting used to this sets up your phrasing well and the listener can easily tell what you're playing, even if they remove all the other instruments from the mix.

 

[Ace]

Trying to make all down strokes sound exactly like upstrokes is impossible and counter intuitive. They're different and need to sound different.

I agree and disagree. Jody Fisher (head of the Los Angeles Music Academy guitar department and author of over 30 books) states that one of the important things in the practice of alt picking is to try and get both strokes to sound as similar as possible. Of course they normally sound a bit different due to pick angle (mostly), but I agree with the idea of being able to make them indistinguishable. By choice. You should be able to control every aspect of your sound by choice.

I think what you're getting at is more accenting and the fact that we tend to accentuate downstrokes, because for most, it is the more natural of the motions, making it hard for rhythmically untrained guitarplayers to start on upstrokes, or work with patterns that reverse/syncopate accents.

On the original topic, I, too have struggled with clean alternate picking for a very, very long time. More than I care to admit, let's just say that other guitar players' entire carees have been shorter In the past 18 months I've been on a quest for the picking technique (again, after nearly giving up on the whole thing a couple of years ago).

What I have found is this: There are very many very minute adjustments to be made, in order to find one's own perfect picking technique. And slowing down does not always give you all the answers, because it tends to mask problems, that occur at higher speeds. Of course once you have found out WHAT to do, you need to practice slowly. But: The thing is, when you compare the picking styles of Paul Gilbert, Yngwie Malmsteen and Steve Morse, each one has phenomenal picking technique, but all three LOOK very distinctly different from each other. I spent a long time obsessing over the details of my motion, practicing the wrist movement isolated, with my hand on a table and eliminating all extraneous movement. Watching my guitar teacher closely and seeing which muscles he engages (because they pop out very visibly) also helped. I tried to really focus on the wrist movement, because a lot of my picking came from my forearm, which made my pick bounce around (in relation to height over the string), and it was several "mini-motions" of my fingers, arm and wrist counteracting each other. It was a very grueling process, and really a lot of reprogramming muscle memory was necessary, to get up to where I am now.

All those exercises are great, but if you don't know how to physically do them "right", you're not necessarily going to learn it from scale exercises. For me, like I said, a lot of very, very detailed observation was necessary.

so long
Andreas aka Ace

 

[Sidivan]

I spent a lot of time in my metal days trying to make my upstrokes sound exactly like my downstrokes and I succeeded. Then i was jamming one day with another guitarist and he's like, "You play so steady and flat. You've worked out all the expression to make everything perfectly even". I just kinda stood there and blinked at him.

Months later I read an interview with Satriani and he said that he had made that mistake as well. By making his upstrokes sound identical to downstrokes, he worked out all the little natural nuances that made his solos groove. Some things we do instinctively are right and if you put too much time into "correcting" those things, your playing can become sterile and unnatural.

 

[henryrobinett]

Well all I can say is I've worked very hard for 30 years or more on my picking technique. Very hard. I do difficult exercises 50 minutes per day for the last 25 plus years. You will never get the down strikes and the up strokes to sound the same. They are different. You can even out the attacks, but the nature of the picking is different. I don't care what "experts" may say. LOL. I'm an expert.

 

[henryrobinett]

ALSO - when your strokes are in sync with the music that's when the magic happens. Downbeats are downbeats and align, generally, with downstrokes. When you play like this, your whole body and phrasing is in sync with the music. It's just like doing open chord strumming. To feel the beat as a listener and as a player you down stroke the chords on the beat, generally speaking. This gives the music a logical momentum of understandable rhythm. The player needs this too! The same exact thing happens with playing lines. No different.

 

[vAmp]

The downbeat is generally BEST articulated as a downstroke.

In practice, I would agree, but then again, I didn't practice it as much

It strikes me as a bit funny that "an original" like you seems fixated on this though?

What is the difference with all kinds of pros hitting an off-beat rhythmic stab (in rhy playing) either downwards or upwards?
They both sound good, as long as you do it consequently (or maybe even both).
Besides the fact that you could call the offbeat 8th the downbeat of the offbeat, theoretically it's still saying to me that you use what suits the situation best and that people can practice to make anything sound good or more original.

Luckily you used "generally"... But from you I'm would be expecting more of "the other way round"

 

[youngmic]

Hey guys, this is good. However, I think I need to be more specific in what I'm asking. I've been playing a while and think I've got the general idea concerning alternate picking, some legato, some sweeps, etc. It's more hand position and motion that I'm concerned about. I'm also wondering if working on more hybrid and economy might be beneficial. Anyway, I also realize that you guys have no context for where I'm coming from in terms of playing. I only have one video of my playing. It's of me trying out the Axe Fx II last year at Tone Merchants. Anyway, here it is:

Mike Young AxeFx2 at Tone Merchants - YouTube

In the middle section (2:10, 3:47, and 4:01), notice expecially what I do with my hand when I start playing faster. My wrist drops and my fingers move slightly back. One of the biggest problems there is strings ringing because I'm no longer muting. I get a lot of dynamics and expressiveness from how I play. I don't want to lose that. But I would very much like to find a way to move to the next level in terms of smoothness and speed.

Mike

 

[clarky]

pick hand anchoring is a big deal in alternate picking

there are a few different ways to go about it too

I anchor with the heel of my hand on the body above the bridge
and I play muted, I slip down onto the bridge...

the Michael Angelo types use a finger or two on the body blow the bridge pup
I tried this for a which but just couldn't get on with it

the killer thing is, no matter how you anchor, it has to be comfortable...

 

[stratamania]

Mike, it's a little difficult to spot from the video, but I think a couple of things may help. The way the pick is held seems to have the thumb and finger pointing at the strings somewhat like holding a pencil, rather than them being more parallel to the strings. I think this is why as you get faster you possibly stiffen up a little and the arm comes into play more and moves away from the body, same thing is happening with chords. I would suggest looking at the video Luke posted and hold the pick as demonstrated somewhere in that video.
Another thing that may help is lower the guitar a little. I think both of those will help.
By the way I liked your playing in any case.

 

[clarky]

In the middle section (2:10, 3:47, and 4:01), notice expecially what I do with my hand when I start playing faster. My wrist drops and my fingers move slightly back. One of the biggest problems there is strings ringing because I'm no longer muting. I get a lot of dynamics and expressiveness from how I play. I don't want to lose that. But I would very much like to find a way to move to the next level in terms of smoothness and speed.

Mike

I see it... it's like you roll your knuckles over and take a different grip on the pick or change the angle of the pick to the strings..
you can see that you change your anchoring location from above to below the strings

it don't sound untidy though..
the only draw back I can think of is the time it takes to make the transition
but even then.. you don't sound like you're hampered by it.. far from it..

 

[henryrobinett]

pick hand anchoring is a big deal in alternate picking

there are a few different ways to go about it too

I anchor with the heel of my hand on the body above the bridge
and I play muted, I slip down onto the bridge...

the Michael Angelo types use a finger or two on the body blow the bridge pup
I tried this for a which but just couldn't get on with it

the killer thing is, no matter how you anchor, it has to be comfortable...

I don't anchor. My hand floats above the bridge and my wrist moves alone. I can drop down to mute at any point. I found my technique got a lot better when I stopped anchoring. It tended to impede my motion a little. I used to anchor with my pinky, then later with the nails of my right hand. Now I just float.

 

[Narzugon]

Nice vid Mic. IMHO, I think you just need to sit down with search engines, links posted here and YouTube and figure out what you want to pursue. and go for it.

Or find private instruction from someone who would benefit you. These days there are guys doing this via Skype as well. So you're not restricted to players in your area. And I'm not implying anything about your playing by suggesting private instruction.

No matter how long I play, I feel that I will always be a student. I just wish my abilities matched the time played (30+ years now).

For me personally I see these various techniques as tools or new colors on your pallet. Whether its picking techniques, phrasing techniques, improv tech or even gear. They're all tools to be used as you see fit.

 

[henryrobinett]

vAmp - I don't know how many times I have to say this before you will decide to try and understand - I'm not interested in BEING ORIGINAL. I'm not interested in copying. There's a HUGE fundamental difference between the two. HUGE.

I'm interested in playing music. Music has specific pulses. When we are in sync with those pulses, from within, the music flows better. Being locked into a quarter note, 8th note pulse makes playing music easier. It's also way more easy to play syncopations when you know solidly where the quarter note is. Knowing where the quarter note is and having your fingers know where they are as well is key. My pick always knows where 1,2,3,4 or whatever time signature, is. It's fundamental. It has nothing to do with originality or not. It has to do with knowing were the music is.

 

[youngmic]

Nice vid Mic. IMHO, I think you just need to sit down with search engines, links posted here and YouTube and figure out what you want to pursue. and go for it.

Or find private instruction from someone who would benefit you. These days there are guys doing this via Skype as well. So you're not restricted to players in your area. And I'm not implying anything about your playing by suggesting private instruction.

No matter how long I play, I feel that I will always be a student. I just wish my abilities matched the time played (30+ years now).

For me personally I see these various techniques as tools or new colors on your pallet. Whether its picking techniques, phrasing techniques, improv tech or even gear. They're all tools to be used as you see fit.

Of course! Just looking for a little grease to speed the effort. Thanks.

Mike, it's a little difficult to spot from the video, but I think a couple of things may help. The way the pick is held seems to have the thumb and finger pointing at the strings somewhat like holding a pencil, rather than them being more parallel to the strings. I think this is why as you get faster you possibly stiffen up a little and the arm comes into play more and moves away from the body, same thing is happening with chords. I would suggest looking at the video Luke posted and hold the pick as demonstrated somewhere in that video.
Another thing that may help is lower the guitar a little. I think both of those will help.
By the way I liked your playing in any case.

Not quite like a pencil, probably somewhere between the two (the other being Proudfoot's technique). But finger movement is definitely a part. What I've noticed in a lot of players these days is strong wrist movement with more of a closed and floating fist (unless they're doing the "hybrid" thing). Actually, I think I wear the guitar high precisely because of how I drop my wrist to play faster. And besides, if I drop it too much lower, I won't be able to see what I'm playing! (Not that I'm dismissing your reco though.)

 

[youngmic]

I see it... it's like you roll your knuckles over and take a different grip on the pick or change the angle of the pick to the strings..
you can see that you change your anchoring location from above to below the strings

it don't sound untidy though..
the only draw back I can think of is the time it takes to make the transition
but even then.. you don't sound like you're hampered by it.. far from it..

Thanks man. I think I've done "OK" with it. But I do think I've taken it pretty far by compensating for the weaknesses of the technique. There is a bit of a catch-22 because it's the uniqueness of technique that can lead to one's own voice. And there are other ways to improve that voice. But I know that I've admired the floating techniques I've seen on numerous occasions. It will be quite a transition if I commit. I know that much.

And yeah, the transition time is an issue. It effects phrasing a lot more than you might imagine. I do not flow smoothly from slow to fast.

 

[Manning]

Paging all the (other) old farts around here.

Back around 1984 or 1985 Guitar Player magazine published a Steve Morse column with his "warm up picking routine". It was a quasi-baroque melody that he wrote himself, and it was brilliant.

I've long since lost the magazine but I still remember the first 10 bars or so of that exercise. If anyone knows what I'm talking about (or better knows of a scan of the exercise) I'd be very pleased.

Update - I found it. This is well worth learning.
http://guitarteacher.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/steve-morse.jpg