Phase issues mixing outputs 1 and 2

S

stereotactic

Experienced
Hello all, I have 2 identical stereo signal paths, but output 1 is minus the dual reverb blocks which are at the end of the signal path to output 2. Output 1 goes into a Bricasti M7 and the output of that and output 2 go to a stereo line mixer, then to a power amp. They both sound good by themselves, but when combined there is cancelling/comb filtering. I have checked the stereo integrity of the two paths in terms of making sure nothing got reversed or panned wrong, I have also tried inverting the phase in the I/O menu on both outputs, but to no avail. Any idea what might be causing this? Could it be latency between the M7 outs and the Axe output 2?
 
Wow a Bricasti :) Probably the Bricasti signal chain has a touch more latency than the chain that goes direct to the mixer so thats why you're hearing the phase. You could try delaying the output 1 (direct) chain with a delay by a few milliseconds then try the phase inversion, but personally I'd re-arrange the patch to use the FX loop on the axe for the Bricasti then just have one output going to the mixer.
 
Thanks for the response ralphonz, I don't want to put the Bricasti in the loop because of all the conversions, hence my earlier thread about trying to run an AES loop with the M7. Any idea on what kind of delay time I would need to offset? I looked up the Bricasti latency and it's less than 1 ms apparently. I guess I can try the delays in 1 ms increments until it sounds better?
 
Bakerman said:
Set the M7 to output 100% wet signal.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll try. I'm using the rooms on the M7, so I could possibly go with 100% wet, but it would be nice to have some flexibility.

I did not have this problem in my rack, which had digital and analog signal paths, no phasing issues whatsoever. I wonder why this is happening in the Axe?
 
The M7 is adding latency. You're delaying one of two matching signals that left the Axe-FX at the same time.

What scenario are you picturing that would require dry signal output by the M7?
 
Last edited:
Bakerman said:
The M7 is adding latency. You're delaying one of two matching signals that left the Axe-FX at the same time.

What scenario are you picturing that would require dry signal output by the M7?
Click to expand...

I was using the the M7 as a side chain/full wet before, but the Axe only has 2 outputs so I need a wet/dry mix for each. This is easy inside the Axe, but will need to balance the wet/dry inside the M7 since it is in between the Axe and line mixer. If trying the M7 full wet doesn't get rid of the phase issue, or I don't like the sound fully wet, I guess the only other idea around this latency is to ditch the Axe verbs altogether and put my TC4000 analog on output 2, so both outputs have similar latency. Make sense?
 
There's no reason to have dry signal in every path. Just set the M7 to output 100% wet signal. Adjust the Axe-FX preset to get the dry tone & Axe reverb at desired levels, then do the same for the M7 (100% wet) output level.
 
That is a good idea, had not thought of that, thanks!

But an AES loop for external processors would still be the best solution of all. Could that be done in a firmware update, or are there hardware issues?
 
I'm not sure if an update could make that possible.

Have you considered that the M7 w/ analog connections in Axe-FX loop might sound as good as any alternate method? There might even be less noise than sending everything through the extra mixer.
 
I guess we won't find out unless somebody from FAS chimes in about the feasibility. I think it would be a great increase in functionality given that an AES loop would increase overall end result fidelity and simplicity for any Axe user needing additional processing.

Will give it a try, but assumed that the extra a/d/a would add latency and lose some clarity. The mixer isn't the best, Ashly LX 308B, but it is pretty quiet and clean. With no AES loop, either way it's a compromise...
 
Update, putting the Bricasti 100% wet and bringing down the level relative to the Axe verbed output 2 worked perfectly. No more phase problems and what a sound! I've got the Axe verbs on halls at 22% and the M7 on heavy room preset, very complimentary, maybe the best sound I've had yet, thanks bakerman and everybody for the info!
 
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