PERFECT PITCH ?

jon said:
No, I'm talking about I wake up in the morning, and play a note and know that it's an E. That's perfect pitch.
Relative pitch is like humming beethoven's 5th to get a gauge of where you are.
Everyone (unless tone deaf like my guitarist buddy) can tell if a pitch is off or not...that's RELATIVE pitch. PP is knowing that the note is a C, without knowing the other note that it's out of tune with.
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That's not necessarily relative pitch. The tuning of pitch is different from knowing what a pitch is.

Perfect Pitch/Absolute Pitch means one can know what the pitches are without reference to outside influence. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with in or out of tune. Yes it comes with the package, I'm sure. I can wake up and someone can hit an E on the guitar and I can know that that's an E, but that's because I've been playing guitar for some 40 some odd years. If he played a clarinet I might not be so successful.
 
@henryrobinett:

- PP: in the last twenty years, and furiously so today, non-Western parts of the world have been inundated in Western music in general, so many they may be getting fixated on 12 tone even temperament. But I doubt it. I think they are just more discerning, and (following with their native linguistic experience) realize that in that context, certain pitches are *correct*. Go back to their language - or even their native music - and a different intonation is correct. BUT. In each case, the pitches must be ACCURATE. (I'm fairly exacting myself in this, as intimated in the story I told above.)

- 200 years ago, etc : I was waiting for this. First, Mozart played around with 14-pitch scales. Second, the Bach motets were intended to be sung, and are sung by some today, in Just Intonation.

- on the importance of rhythm: Stockhausen would agree with you.....


@jon (and in conjunction with Trazan) : well, you have to learn two things: you have no control over some things; and you don't have to spank the bitch the whole time (only when it's necessary....although maybe you need to hit up the local BDSM clan for some respite?).


PP - variable media speeds: I don't think this was a factor, but can't confirm exactly why. I do know through experience that people can be de-programmed of nearly any kind of PopCul or Cultural conditioning, if they are willing and given the right tools. I saw it in my music classes. Even I experienced a form of this when studying electronic music: I thought it sounded cheesy, like 50s/60s sci-fi movies. It took a bit of effort to re-fit myself.

I find (and see in this thread) that some labels induce absolute, rather than indicating a range of ability. I find Contextualisation allows one a neutral tool set to reckon music with (and reckon the world with - it sure beats the shit out of Morality!).
 
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When I was at Berklee I met many people who had perfect pitch. I was in one ear training class with a guy that had an amazing gift. 3 people could slam 30 fingers on a piano at the same time and he could name every note in order. Talk about intimidating! All I could hear was a mass cacophony.

I can hear the pitch of a song before I play it if I've heard it a couple of times. I can always sing the intros of songs I play at the right pitch without hearing the tonic. I can also drop a needle on any of my vinyl and sing the pitch before the song starts. I just don't associate it in my brain to call the first note an A or whatever.
 
i'd imagine anyone with perfect pitch would avoid fretted instruments like the plague!every guitar ever played would sound out.equal temperament is a compromise system in itself.
 
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What's BDSM?
Yes - most people with perfect pitch that I've met tend to stray away from fretted instruments - most prefer the piano, and some like instruments like the violin (non-fretted).
The keyboard/sampler guy I mentioned above actually gave up guitar when he got perfect pitch. I also should have been a little more specific - he didn't get it overnight - I worked with him for about 2 years, and only now he hears it, and the guitar is particularly offensive to him now.
I love guitar too much to let it go tho ;)
 
Hey Jon,
If you get nausea when you hear off-key sounds it's probably some form of synestesia :)
I can intellectually relate to your experience, for my very ordinary ears what will make me want to puke is people listening to music with blasting distorsion (i mean - harmonic distortion, not distortion pedals on guitars) and not realizing how awful this is but perception is all relative isn't it. But I would love to hear more when things are wrong, and I don't - or I hear after the fact. Anyways. We all know that guitars are "impossible" instruments when it comes to being in tune, have you heard about this swedish company making specific necks with what they call "true temperament" ? their web site is True Temperament - Fretting systems and there is a german company, VGS, who has released a guitar with this neck and the evertune bridge, which actually allows the notes to stay in tune even when you have the pick attack (and also to stay in tune all the time but I guess for you it's less useful). So the ads claim that this guitar is the "best possibly intonated actually available", I don't know if it's true and I may not be able to hear it - but you may save some precious time using an instrument like this (ps : I don't own shares of those companies).
 
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RDeraz said:
i'd imagine anyone with perfect pitch would avoid fretted instruments like the plague!every guitar ever played would sound out.equal temperament is a compromise system in itself.
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No, that's relative pitch. Depending on the context, each note on that keyboard or fretted instrument is more or less off key. Not until the note is in context do we know its harmonic relation and thus its pitch.

I'd love to try one of those True Temperament necks one day. It would definitely solve some tuning problems!
 
Trazan said:
I'd love to try one of those True Temperament necks one day. It would definitely solve some tuning problems!
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Well the company is based in Stockholm ... not so far from Norway :) And VGS guitars is German. Interesting innovations coming from old Europe :)
 
pdelanghe said:
Hey Jon,
If you get nausea when you hear off-key sounds it's probably some form of synestesia :)
I can intellectually relate to your experience, for my very ordinary ears what will make me want to puke is people listening to music with blasting distorsion (i mean - harmonic distortion, not distortion pedals on guitars) and not realizing how awful this is but perception is all relative isn't it. But I would love to hear more when things are wrong, and I don't - or I hear after the fact. Anyways. We all know that guitars are "impossible" instruments when it comes to being in tune, have you heard about this swedish company making specific necks with what they call "true temperament" ? their web site is True Temperament - Fretting systems and there is a german company, VGS, who has released a guitar with this neck and the evertune bridge, which actually allows the notes to stay in tune even when you have the pick attack (and also to stay in tune all the time but I guess for you it's less useful). So the ads claim that this guitar is the "best possibly intonated actually available", I don't know if it's true and I may not be able to hear it - but you may save some precious time using an instrument like this (ps : I don't own shares of those companies).
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that's it! I think I have exactly that now that I read about it :eek: pdelanghe you're a genius! (and possibly a doctor! :lol )

It makes a lot of sense...I see, hear, smell and taste and in 'strange' ways, and these senses evoke some strange phenomena - I might 'feel' a tone, or I might see (hallucinate?) strange colors when I hear some types of music...I've also smelled and tasted things when I've heard certain sounds. It makes a TON of sense now...I never really made the association, but now it makes a LOAD of sense....I've never, however seen 'colors' when reading words....but sometimes strange things happen - red traffic lights screw me up totally sometimes, and I perceive them as 'ok', and my gf has to yell at me to stop....this has happened on MANY occasions.....however I might look at a piece of music (notes)..and I see it in psychedelic 60's or something.

I was very hesitant to post anything in this thread, but I'm glad I did - due to your post, I think I understand my 'oddities'...well at least I have an explanation for them. It's hard on this forum to describe things like that - people always assume that I'm nit-picking or bashing, neither of which are my intentions.

It's very strange, that my gf has the same experiences....but hers are much more heightened. I suppose that was part of the attraction - weirdos attract weirdos right? :lol

I should probably mention that although I had these experiences before, it REALLY heightened when I turned veggie about 4 years or so ago. Suddenly, I could hear things a LOT better, I could taste things and taste individual components....I can tell sometimes what was in the chef's pot next to mine when he was preparing it....I could smell much better - I actually smelled someone next to my house the other day, even BEFORE my dog! :eek: You all are probably going to label me as totally weird now :lol But I thought I would share some of this - maybe I might get some more explanations from guys like pdelanghe.

As for perfect pitch, some people associate them with colors...I kinda associate them with....I dunno....feelings...emotions...smells...taste....a wash of colors. I don't know how other people see it, but for me, music is awash with senses.
For eg, I associate a G note with joy....exaltation...nature....mountains....(maybe that's why cliffs of dover was in G?).....I associate an E with a somber type of mood...and with a slight metallic taste (metallica anyone?)....I associate C with a 'vibe'...I feel vibrations with that note....it kinda has a 'party mood'.....B is a sort of serious note....dark and a bit brooding.....Eb makes me taste banana marshmallows.....D conjures up images of square dancing......F always has a 'resolution' but 'pain' to it.....I can go on and on about them all.....

These things are hard to describe, especially when I'm describing them with a bunch of different senses...I do not know how other perfect pitch persons hear or process them. Most say that they 'see colors' or something like that...I don't have an answer for it. It's fascinating, but still very frustrating. Sometimes music is an emotional rollercoaster when done right....VERY intense....and other times, when NOT done right, it's a NIGHTMARE...I often take the music off...like I said before, I hardly go to concerts anymore....it wrecks total havoc on my nerves and senses.

Glad you mentioned the true temperament - I was looking at that for the longest while....Vai had/has it on some of his guitars...I think he is also said to have perfect pitch. I can listen to Vai, I don't get headaches....I don't like his 'headachy' TONE much, but I like what I hear....he does indeed have a good ear.....listening to him live is when you get to appreciate it. I think I will take the plunge and try out the true temperament....if it works for Vai it has to be good for something right? :p
 
@jon: Hahahahah. You would've found it easily - but I'll give it to you: Bondage Domination and Sado-Masochism.



pdelanghe said:
Hey Jon,
If you get nausea when you hear off-key sounds it's probably some form of synestesia :)...I don't know if it's true and I may not be able to hear it - but you may save some precious time using an instrument like this (ps : I don't own shares of those companies).
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So what if you did? If the product works.... Around Schoenberg's time, and a contemporary of his in Vienna, there was a dude (perhaps of mathematical flavour - ah, the sense of things!) who had figured out a 53-pitch scale that he said gave 'purer' intervals. I recall that some people hear in Just Intonation, which is probably Jon's issue.


Except for seeing my mom play piano in the house, which I listened to but didn't watch her hands much even when sitting with her, I grew up listening to recorded music, and so I didn't see in my mind's eye people playing music or even see instruments. I saw color spaces. Particularly when I heard music like this:





When studying music, I generally closed my eyes at performances, because I enjoyed the 'light show', but also because I felt the real visual display got in the way of perceiving the music 'cleanly'. Also, I don't associate colors or tones with any particular emotion, what-have-you. As a child I did not enjoy minor keys in pop music, but now I know that's mostly because they were so diatonic.

I think you're interesting, jon. And I know of many who would prefer your...difficult...experience to the one they imagine I have. I don't share their sentiment, as I don't think a dualistic system (bad/good, pain/pleasure) is necessary. Now, to your going veg: did you quit other things, like smoking/drinking/coffee, too?
 
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yea, quit all those things over time as well.....I'm pretty 'clean' now...I still have a fetish for snacks every once in a while, but I'm VERY careful what I eat...mostly fruits, nuts, veggies, and nothing that a 6 year old can't read - got that last part from oprah hahaha
If someone told me I'd be eating 'clean' and the benefits I'd have gotten, I'd have thought they were out of their MIND a few years ago. I had a bad experience with KFC on night shift...that turned me off COMPLETELY from chicken...and soon all other meats were cut out....and gradually alco, sugars, preservatives, etc.
NOW, I know that it's the best decision I ever made in my life. Back then, I would have liked to know how a human could live eating just stuff grown from the ground! :lol
 
Hi Jon
My name is Philippe, I'm not a doctor :) but I'm interested in neurosciences, I love music and I have a handicapped son who has perfect pitch ... so that's a couple of reasons for digging this. Well, you definitively have synestesia : it's not necessarily colors, it often is and it makes sense because the visual area is the most developed of the brain so "phantom connexions" between the hearing are and the visual area are more likely than with the "taste" area - but it also happens. You are in good company : Bernstein, Ellington, Billy Joel, Franz Liszt ... Van Halen, Hendrix, Beck ... and by making music your work you are obviously using this very special capability to your advantage, even if it makes tuning the guitar an pain in the neck (pun intended :)). You should read "musicophilia" from Oliver Sacks and check the web site, he has some cool stories that will make you feel totally average :). Oliver Sacks . Musicophilia .
I'm also interested in nutrition ... but I don't see a clear link between becoming a vegan and improving your hearing capabilities. that's very interesting ! This is something I've never heard before - but the people i discuss nutrition with are runners like me and none of us have perfect pitch :) you are what you eat but still ... maybe there is an influence on the production of neurotransmitters like dopamine and then the links between the various areas of the brain are more fluid ? Did you experience other mental changes ?
 
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aculturemind said:
Around Schoenberg's time, and a contemporary of his in Vienna, there was a dude (perhaps of mathematical flavour - ah, the sense of things!) who had figured out a 53-pitch scale that he said gave 'purer' intervals. I recall that some people hear in Just Intonation, which is probably Jon's issue.
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That's where it gets complicated : because my understanding is that notes are produced by air vibration, that the basics are : vibrates x2 = octave and vibrates*2/3 = fifth, and that the subdivision is 12 equal intervals is an approximation as the mathematical series do not converge - like when you go round the cycle of fifth you should eventually find an integer multiple of your root frequency but it does not happen. Same issue with minor thirds - what is OK today would make middle age monks cringe with dissonance.

If Jon would have been raised in india where they use quarter tone intervals, would he feel different things when he hears music ? Ok this is becoming very speculative. But thanks for the link with Steve Roach, I did not know him and I love what I heard - I'm seeing moving lights. I will try this for my next long run and see what happens !
 
the rabbit hole deepens! :D
Philippe, (can I call you Dr Phil? :lol ) you've made a lot of sense of what seemed to be nonsense and dementia to me lol I really appreciate your insight ;)
As for mental changes, I felt more relaxed, and suddenly I could not get stressed as before....I had a pretty hot temper, and suddenly nothing could phase me....I laughed off serious insults for eg....and my day job is a high stress one.....I was able to go thru the day like I was at the beach. I could breathe clearer, and I felt more energized and indeed I was - we have one of the tallest structures in our country at work, and I'd be huffing and puffing going up, and after I converted, I felt a 'spring' in my step - the difference was very very obvious, and I could run up to the top pretty easily. I didn't realize that my hearing, smell and taste had improved until I realized that I was doing things like complaining in restaurants that there was a meat taste in my food....I complained to the chef, asking him if he made it in the same oil, and when he checked, the dishes NEXT to mine were meat. I somehow got that ability, and before my friends used to laugh at me - I couldn't tell chicken from beef! :lol That difference manifested itself a number of times in a number of different ways. My gf has this ability to an AMAZING degree....she can eat a dish and call out all the components of it :eek: truly incredible! I can identify all the main ones, but she can tell what type of pepper was used, for eg. To me, it just tastes like pepper hahaha
The hearing thing came pretty suddenly too.....it was like a blanket was lifted off my ears.....I could hear things no-one else could.....for eg...in work, there was a monitor that they plugged in for a camera....suddenly this thing was making a high pitched noise.....it was sending me CRAZY!!! I actually almost got violent when I heard it - I HAD to cover my ears - it was INSANE!!! Turns out that I was only one of 3 people that could hear it, but it was the worst in me - I could hear the bloody thing two ROOMS away! The other guys stopped hearing it as soon as they left the room. They tested me over and over - put me a couple rooms away, and turned the monitor on and off. I could hear it every single time. I found this naturally interesting, so I used a zoom h4n to take a sample of the noise. I played it back for my gf, and immediately, she had the same reaction...and all the dogs for a block away went NUTS! Also, her little nephew, who was in the shower, two rooms away, started going 'EEEEEEEEEEE' in the shower to the same pitch (a few octaves lower) as the noise....and he had no idea we were playing it!

Now no doubt that some of these things may have been a placebo, but there was DEFINITELY something else going on in my body that heightened some of my senses to much more than they were previously. I cannot explain it, but there are some on the forum who might be able to. I'd certainly appreciate any insight, as this whole thing is fascinating at times.
 
The funny thing that you mention indian music....my grandparents love indian music....so does my gf....but they like different types....it never really grew on my, but i was hearing this stuff in all different directions growing up...a lot of people here like indian music...indian classical has some of those quarter tone thingys, and they seem 'right' to me, even if a little de-stabilizing at times. I can't listen to too much of it tho...never quite gelled with me. But where I'm from indian music is all over....you won't hear much of it these days, but when I was growing up, it was all around me.
Now there are 1/4 note bends in what I play, and when I play, they sound very different to when my friends play them...I kinda 'know' where the 1/4 tone is, and they just kinda 'bend it sharp' and hope for the best. That's something that I could never get anyone to 'hear' properly.....the 1/4 tone bends
 
pdelanghe said:
That's where it gets complicated : because my understanding is that notes are produced by air vibration, that the basics are : vibrates x2 = octave and vibrates*2/3 = fifth, and that the subdivision is 12 equal intervals is an approximation as the mathematical series do not converge - like when you go round the cycle of fifth you should eventually find an integer multiple of your root frequency but it does not happen. Same issue with minor thirds - what is OK today would make middle age monks cringe with dissonance.
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As I remember, Greek scales were not even-tempered. In any case, especially in light of jon's statement about quarter tones, I'm thinking his sense of intonation is not even-tempered-based.


But thanks for the link with Steve Roach, I did not know him and I love what I heard - I'm seeing moving lights. I will try this for my next long run and see what happens !
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Glad you like it. Steve Roach is my fave electronic musician, my fave 'space music' maker.


@jon: When I started doing Hindu squats, I felt a spring in my step, too. Hmh hmh hmh. Not dissing your vegi-ness; I can't do it, becuase my stomach needs animal flesh to keep full on. But I still smell and taste beyond most people. Your girlfriend sounds like she's a 'super-taster'.

That 'pitch' you heard was a 15khz 'whine', and apparently is caused by vibrating components in the ring assembly of a CRT. I've always been aware of it, though it hasn't ever bothered me; nails on board never bothered me, either.
 
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So this concept of temperament is probably culture-based or "while the brain is still very flexible and most neural connexions are not yet done". Children can hear and replicate the sounds of any language until they are 6 months old and then it becomes more difficult, and if you learn a language after you are 10 you will always keep some type of accent (that you cannot hear on the keyboard though - i'm french ;-)

Which records would you recommend to get into Roach's music ?

I'm still puzzled about Jon's veggie-induced supra hearing ... I may try to get off protein for a while and see I hear better (or vice versa)
 
jon <I might 'feel' a tone, or I might see (hallucinate?) strange colors when I hear some types of music>


I'm old enough to have been around in the psychedelic era...one particular trip I could not tell the difference between sound and color...I'll never forget that feeling.
 
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