Perceived volume (Solid state vs tube power) - Help needed!

[Lorlen]

Hey guys

Recently got an axe fx and an art sla-1 amp, and at the first practice ive had with it I noticed that my friends amp was notably louder (at a low ish volume) even with my ART turned almost all the way up

Cab was a 4x12 with 120w handling
SLA1 was in bridged mono mode at 16ohms (175w max)

The tube amp was 100w

Now I know that its to do with frequencies produced, so if I have a solid state clean power amp, is there any way I can increase my rigs perceived volume through the axe fx? (for the same or lower volume on the actual amp)

Many thanks in advance

 

[OmegaZero]

This has been discussed many times lately - a quick search should turn up at least a half dozen threads on the topic.

To summarize: Some people say 2x, others 5x. From my own experience 3x seems to be the magic number, meaning you'll need 3x more power with a solid state amp to get the same volume as a tube amp. Regardless of whose number you go by, if your friend's amp is 100w and your cab is 16 ohm you're going to need a bit more than the SLA-1 can deliver.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

To summarize: Some people say 2x, others 5x. From my own experience 3x seems to be the magic number,

In decibels, the difference between 3x and 5x is minimal (2.2dB).

Regardless of whose number you go by, if your friend's amp is 100w and your cab is 16 ohm you're going to need a bit more than the SLA-1 can deliver.

FWIW, Anyone who is concerned with keeping up with a 100W tube amp at rehearsal is going to have somewhat more serious issues (hearing loss) in their future.

 

[Lorlen]

Hey guys thanks for the replies

I guess on reflection the real problem is that hes probably turned up too loud. Our drummer is also a loud b*stard too

I'll take the easy and sensible route and ask them to turn down!

Perhaps I should also get some earplugs...

Thanks again

 

[rsf1977]

Ask your drummer to turn down? That's like asking a guitarist to play lighter that isn't going to sound the same. I mean what if Dave grohl "turned down" or Kieth moon. You need a louder amp 175watts solid state isn't much power. You can always turn your volume down if you get something that's more then you need. And get some decent ear plugs lol.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Ask your drummer to turn down? That's like asking a guitarist to play lighter that isn't going to sound the same.

I like to call it "technique." Drummers (and guitar players) who actually have some can adjust their volume and still play well. It may require changing sticks and/or retuning drums, but real musicians know how to do this. Posers just keep playing loud and eventually go deaf.

or Kieth moon.

Pete Townshend has perpetual tinnitus (ringing in the ears). He has said many times that, if he had know what he was doing to himself, he would have played at a lower volume.

Playing too loud and then using earplugs is a lot like setting your AC really cold in hot weather and wearing a jacket indoors to keep warm. It kinda works, but it just doesn't seem that intelligent when you look at it objectively.....

 

[dpeterson]

IEM

 

[mortega76]

Our drummer plays with in-ear phones connected to a drum machine that "ticks" out a metronome. So his hearing is pretty well protected via the in-ear phones. I love the fact that he plays "hard" because that just means during a live show his performance is going "look" that much better... I hate going to a show and seeing a drummer just "laid back" on his kit... It's a different world when it comes to rock/metal.

Each drummer that I've played with I've always told them to play harder, snap the wrist more... that way the drum sounds aggressive and "in ya face"... In my (rock/metal) experience, there is no substitute. I will say that hitting the cymbals that hard kills them a lot faster and they get to be loud as f*ck without earplugs.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I love the fact that he plays "hard" because that just means during a live show his performance is going "look" that much better... I hate going to a show and seeing a drummer just "laid back" on his kit...

That's completely disconnected from volume. I've played with very visually-oriented drummers who didn't play loud at all.

It's a different world when it comes to rock/metal.

You never played R&B shows, then.

Each drummer that I've played with I've always told them to play harder, snap the wrist more... that way the drum sounds aggressive and "in ya face"... In my (rock/metal) experience, there is no substitute.

That's far more a function of the drummer knowing how to choose sticks, select and tune drum heads, and play his kit, than of sheer volume. A strong, in-your-face backbeat is an absolute necessity in rock 'n' roll and R&B, but that doesn't mean the drummer has to deafen his bandmates.

FWIW, playing loud enough to cause hearing damage is not in any way unique to metal and/or modern rock. It dates back to the early 1960s at least. I'd like to say that age will impart wisdom and musicality in this regard. Unfortunately, I hear far too many players in my age bracket doing the same thing.

Music does not have to cause injury to be intense....

 

[hippietim]

It's a different world when it comes to rock/metal.

Each drummer that I've played with I've always told them to play harder, snap the wrist more... that way the drum sounds aggressive and "in ya face"... In my (rock/metal) experience, there is no substitute. I will say that hitting the cymbals that hard kills them a lot faster and they get to be loud as f*ck without earplugs.

Sorry dude but that's just not been my experience at all. I've played in rock/metal bands off and on for 25+ years. A drummer with real stick chops doesn't need to hit hard to sound good. The drummer in my current band can (and does) hit the drums hard as shit when it suits the moment but he has fantastic technique and sounds brilliant when it seems like he's barely touching them. It's about having real technique, being able to tune the drums, and having the musicianship to play with some feel and dynamics. These concepts transcend rock/metal - they apply to jazz, blues, orchestra, swing, country, etc. A good metal drummer will not just pound the drums all night as hard as he can.

 

[rsf1977]

we are going to have to agree to disagree. But! 175 solid state watts doesn't give much I'd have more power regardless. If your band plays a gig where your cabs have to carry the room volume you are certainly going to be up the creek. There's no reason why you can't have more power if you should need it. Unless it's a money issue. But to the original question you can't really make your amp louder, but you could probably use some compression to make it appear louder like mastering a CD getting the overall level louder. But the loudest sound will never get louder, you can't squeeze blood from a stone.

 

[mwc2112]

Playing too loud and then using earplugs is a lot like setting your AC really cold in hot weather and wearing a jacket indoors to keep warm. It kinda works, but it just doesn't seem that intelligent when you look at it objectively.....

I really like this analogy.

As for the rest, a guy I play with currently is by far the best drummer I've played with. Using the same drum kit we've played in large rooms and we recently played at a benefit dinner in a smaller room where they were eating not 8 feet from us and the diners could still carry on a conversation. At no time did his drumming suffer because he couldn't bang the bejeezus out of it. His technique and control are fantastic and I wish other drummer I've seen and played with learned how to do this. They would be much better for it.

 

[Kriig]

Hey guys thanks for the replies

I guess on reflection the real problem is that hes probably turned up too loud. Our drummer is also a loud b*stard too

I'll take the easy and sensible route and ask them to turn down!

Perhaps I should also get some earplugs...

Thanks again

And the guy who started this thread told us what he wanted to do..... and we'll respect that.. ???

If your rehersals have a lower volum, you will hear your mistakes much better. In the end it will make the band tighter and better. Our drummer is using Roland TD-12. Sounds great at all volums. And i'm happy for those rubber cymbals

BTW: since this is the Fractal Forum, nobody will complain about DIGITAL technology, like V-drums :mrgreen:

 

[JKos]

You could have your cab rewired to be a 4 Ohm cab. A four speaker, 16 Ohm cab typically has four 16 Ohm speakers in it. Two pairs wired in series (16+16 = 32) and then those pairs wired in parallel (32/2 = 16). If you wire all four speakers in parallel, you'll have a 4 Ohm cab (16/4 = 4).

Well, darn, the SLA-1 is only spec'd down to 8 Ohm in bridged mode. Never mind. If you rewired for two 8 Ohm inputs you could get 200 W total out of the SLA-1.

A drummer does NOT have to be loud to sound great even in a rock band. The best drummer I've ever played with or done sound with could knock your socks off at any volume. It's all about technique. One time I finally convinced a loud-as-he!! drummer to tone it down a bit. He was amazed how much better his drums sounded.

- John

 

[Sixstring]

You could have your cab rewired to be a 4 Ohm cab. A four speaker, 16 Ohm cab typically has four 16 Ohm speakers in it. Two pairs wired in series (16+16 = 32) and then those pairs wired in parallel (32/2 = 16). If you wire all four speakers in parallel, you'll have a 4 Ohm cab (16/4 = 4).

Well, darn, the SLA-1 is only spec'd down to 8 Ohm in bridged mode. Never mind. If you rewired for two 8 Ohm inputs you could get 200 W total out of the SLA-1.

A drummer does NOT have to be loud to sound great even in a rock band. The best drummer I've ever played with or done sound with could knock your socks off at any volume. It's all about technique. One time I finally convinced a loud-as-he!! drummer to tone it down a bit. He was amazed how much better his drums sounded.

- John

The Manual states the SLA series are stable down to 4 ohms. Bottom line is the man needs more power if he wants to keep up with his buddies 100 watt head. 3-500 watts my freind thats the ticket... and a set of ear plugs :mrgreen: SLA-2 FTW I saw one in the for sale section.

 

[Lemurstrat]

Lorlen, what speakers do you have in your 4x12. (30w each =120w total I guess.)
Speaker watts are not as important as to how dB sensitive (efficient) the speakers are. I'm sure if you had loud 102dB speakers you would be very loud with the Sla-1 in 8 or 4 ohm bridge mode.